Changing the crank position sensor tips

Coyote Chris · Jul 12, 2017

I think Macka and DirtFlyer have changed out their crank position sensor (CKP sensor) Anyone else have any tips? I PMed them.

To Macka and DirtFlyer

NT 700 Crank Position sensor.
http://www.nt-owners.org/forums/showthread.php?9577-It-just-would-not-start-part-2
DirtFlyer and Maka have changed it out.
Changing the CKP sensor
I got the dreaded 1-9 trouble code on my NT when I turned it off after the bike was hot and it wouldn’t start. It started after a bit and I rode it home. “Intermittant when hot” CKPs are common on Subarus, for instance.
I think you changed yours out. Is this the procedure as you remember it? (The pigtail connector is under the right middle cowl near the radiator cap)
Pages 11-5, 11-12, 11-20
Drain oil, remove exhaust, remove right case cover bolts, clutch cable holder, clutch cable, starter motor cable guide, right crank case cover.
Remove dowel pins and clean mating surface.
Remove old sensor and install new one.
Apply Liquid sealant three bond 1207b, and reinstall cover.
(Honda isn’t real clear on the sensor bolt torque and case cover values. See pages 11-2 and 11-3 and 1-13 through 1-17))

Coyote Chris · Jul 12, 2017

I think it is part 9 in this pic but it is called something else.

http://www.bikebandit.com/oem-parts/2010-honda-nt700v/o/m18775#sch633967

dnktng · Jul 12, 2017

Coyote Chris said:
I think it is part 9 in this pic but it is called something else.

Pulse Generator.

Page 1-15 has torque for 6mm cover bolts. It's 9 ft-lbs. Go easy, that isn't much.
Page 1-13 has general torque value for 6mm hex bolt for the CPS bolts. I'd use that unless you can find a torque for that specific bolt. It is 7 ft-lbs. That isn't much either......snug ....done.

mikesim · Jul 12, 2017

I've been contemplating buying one to have on hand since Traveller is beginning to get a bit long in the tooth (80K) and I take looong rides. I already carry a spare clutch cable thanks to JungleJim. Also thinking about spare throttle cables although I have never heard of one failing on an NT>

Mike

Coyote Chris · Jul 12, 2017

dnktng said:
Pulse Generator.

Page 1-15 has torque for 6mm cover bolts. It's 9 ft-lbs. Go easy, that isn't much.
Page 1-13 has general torque value for 6mm hex bolt for the CPS bolts. I'd use that unless you can find a torque for that specific bolt. It is 7 ft-lbs. That isn't much either......snug ....done.

Thanks. I do have a torque wrench that will cover those values...I wonder how much torque will be needed to break them loose.....

Coyote Chris · Jul 12, 2017

mikesim said:
I've been contemplating buying one to have on hand since Traveller is beginning to get a bit long in the tooth (80K) and I take looong rides. I already carry a spare clutch cable thanks to JungleJim. Also thinking about spare throttle cables although I have never heard of one failing on an NT>

Mike

It would be interesting to know the failure rates in the Euro Deauvilles....wonder if I can access those forums since they have lots more bikes out there......
OK, I joined a Deauville forum and made a post to see if they have an idea of failure rates.
http://www.deauvilleuk.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=32407

Coyote Chris · Jul 12, 2017

DirtFlyer has responded and agrees with the low torque values....I think the toughest part will be the exaust system.....but I wonder if it has to come all the way off....

Macka · Jul 13, 2017

Yes Chris, it is item #9 called a Pulse Generator by Honda.
As I replied to you on the UK Forum, it is necessary to get the pipes out of the way.
I removed the muffler and the front header pipe and just loosened the nuts on the rear header pipe and lifted it up out of the way.
I have never had a problem with removing or refitting the exhaust (done several times).
The sensor replacement itself is easy.
Be careful that you clean and reseal the RH case face correctly or you may end up with a leak from there.
I insist on using the Japanese 3Bond sealant which is Honda OE supplied (or aftermarket) as it WILL NOT leak if applied correctly.
I know that some US companies make fine products too but my experience over many years has proven that 3Bond will not leak.
I have not the slightest sign of a leak after nearly 40,oookm.
Do not use too much as it will squeeze out into the crankcase and potentially block an oil-way.

Macka

Macka · Jul 13, 2017

mikesim said:
I've been contemplating buying one to have on hand since Traveller is beginning to get a bit long in the tooth (80K) and I take looong rides. I already carry a spare clutch cable thanks to JungleJim. Also thinking about spare throttle cables although I have never heard of one failing on an NT>

Mike

Despite my previous problems with the CKP Sensor, I do not carry a spare as it in not really a job that I would like to tackle on the side of the road (Auto Service Tow Home!)
and it is most unlikely to stick you up permanently anywhere. I had several occasions where the engine would not restart when hot but it always restarted after a cool-down and I was always able to get home again, even needing to ride several hundred km in the heat. As long as I did not turn the engine off it would keep going until I got home.

Macka

mikesim · Jul 13, 2017

Macka said:
Despite my previous problems with the CKP Sensor, I do not carry a spare as it in not really a job that I would like to tackle on the side of the road (Auto Service Tow Home!)
and it is most unlikely to stick you up permanently anywhere. I had several occasions where the engine would not restart when hot but it always restarted after a cool-down and I was always able to get home again, even needing to ride several hundred km in the heat. As long as I did not turn the engine off it would keep going until I got home.

Macka

I wasn't thinking so much about having it for a roadside repair, but having it so a dealer enroute can effect the repair. Dealers here in the US seldom have NT parts in stock (unless it fits something else) and the parts are usually a day or two away.

Mike

DirtFlier · Jul 13, 2017

[...I had several occasions where the engine would not restart when hot but it always restarted after a cool-down...]

My experience was identical. Stopped for fuel on a very hot day and the engine would not immediately restart but after x-minutes it fired-up. The engine temp really spikes when you come in off the road on a hot day and turn OFF the engine so it may take 10-15 minutes of cool down. The key here is to not run the battery dead during this period of no-start!

Macka · Jul 13, 2017

DirtFlier said:
[...I had several occasions where the engine would not restart when hot but it always restarted after a cool-down...]

My experience was identical. Stopped for fuel on a very hot day and the engine would not immediately restart but after x-minutes it fired-up. The engine temp really spikes when you come in off the road on a hot day and turn OFF the engine so it may take 10-15 minutes of cool down. The key here is to not run the battery dead during this period of no-start!

Correct. If it does not start within two seconds STOP CRANKING. Be patient, go and have a nice cool drink so that you can both cool down.
Remember, it is a Honda, it will get you home (99.9% of the time anyway).

Mike, I understand your thoughts there but as I said, it has always got me home even with a failing CKP Sensor on a hot day and 200+km from home.
I am often 100km from the nearest town and 300km from the nearest bike shop, let alone a Honda Dealership and I never give it a second thought.
It can be very remote in outback OZ. I also often go 1 hour or more without seeing anyone on the road and I am often traveling alone.
There is often no mobile (cell) phone signal for hours at a time.
If I was riding anything but a Japanese bike I would not have the confidence to do that.
The only spare parts that I carry on my travels are fuses. I used to carry 500ml (3/4 pint) of oil for a top-up but I have even given up on that now as it has never needed it and it is completely oil tight. I do carry two puncture repair kits (large and small holes) but I don't consider those as spare parts.

Macka

Coyote Chris · Jul 13, 2017

mikesim said:
I wasn't thinking so much about having it for a roadside repair, but having it so a dealer enroute can effect the repair. Dealers here in the US seldom have NT parts in stock (unless it fits something else) and the parts are usually a day or two away.

Mike

I think like that also.....I am still not sure how big an issue this is. I am not getting any feedback from our Euro Cousins. The Subaru forum folk were very helpful when I had a bad cam position sensor. Then said when the car wouldnt start after being hot, tap the cam posi sensor and see if that fixed it. It not, tap the crank sensor. Both were right out in the open. They said all the sensor is composed of is a coil of wire which is potted. The fine wire then breaks and creates an intermittant connection that is likely to open up when hot.
The Subaru uses a historical memory engine computer. Once it knows the position of the crank and the cam, it can fire the spark and injectors correctly. Then, after the engine is running, one or the other can fail and it remembers on which revelution the other is. Turn off the hot engine and then you are dead in the water. Until things cool and the connection makes.

Coyote Chris · Jul 13, 2017

DirtFlier said:
[...I had several occasions where the engine would not restart when hot but it always restarted after a cool-down...]

My experience was identical. Stopped for fuel on a very hot day and the engine would not immediately restart but after x-minutes it fired-up. The engine temp really spikes when you come in off the road on a hot day and turn OFF the engine so it may take 10-15 minutes of cool down. The key here is to not run the battery dead during this period of no-start!

Thanks for your (and Macka's) help. I think I will just buy the sensor and take things apart, inspecting the pigtail, excetera and just replace the thing. Then I need to build some confidence in the bike with some short trips, like one lap of WA, before I take it anywhere long next year....gotta look up that sealant and get that ordered.

Coyote Chris · Jul 13, 2017

DirtFlier said:
[...I had several occasions where the engine would not restart when hot but it always restarted after a cool-down...]

My experience was identical. Stopped for fuel on a very hot day and the engine would not immediately restart but after x-minutes it fired-up. The engine temp really spikes when you come in off the road on a hot day and turn OFF the engine so it may take 10-15 minutes of cool down. The key here is to not run the battery dead during this period of no-start!

As an aside, when I tried to start my NT and it cranked too long, I stopped and then tried again and it fired right up. Due to the sun, I didnt notice the check engine light till we were on the interstate, then we pulled off and Frosty said to turn off the engine and turn it on again (after we saw the flashing code 19. ) The light went off.

Coyote Chris · Jul 13, 2017

Macka said:
Yes Chris, it is item #9 called a Pulse Generator by Honda.
As I replied to you on the UK Forum, it is necessary to get the pipes out of the way.
I removed the muffler and the front header pipe and just loosened the nuts on the rear header pipe and lifted it up out of the way.
I have never had a problem with removing or refitting the exhaust (done several times).
The sensor replacement itself is easy.
Be careful that you clean and reseal the RH case face correctly or you may end up with a leak from there.
I insist on using the Japanese 3Bond sealant which is Honda OE supplied (or aftermarket) as it WILL NOT leak if applied correctly.
I know that some US companies make fine products too but my experience over many years has proven that 3Bond will not leak.
I have not the slightest sign of a leak after nearly 40,oookm.
Do not use too much as it will squeeze out into the crankcase and potentially block an oil-way.

Macka

Thanks a whole bunch! I ordered the sensor and the Hondabond HT. I will document this whole "process" ie PITA. with pics.

I am still unclear about the order of what the bike does when the sensor fails. Will it light its "Check engine" light if the sensor opens up when you are merrily going down the road even if the bike's computer has historical memory? I would like to start the bike and wiggle the pigtail and connector and see if the light appears.

Coyote Chris · Jul 13, 2017

Macka said:
Correct. If it does not start within two seconds STOP CRANKING. Be patient, go and have a nice cool drink so that you can both cool down.
Remember, it is a Honda, it will get you home (99.9% of the time anyway).

Mike, I understand your thoughts there but as I said, it has always got me home even with a failing CKP Sensor on a hot day and 200+km from home.
I am often 100km from the nearest town and 300km from the nearest bike shop, let alone a Honda Dealership and I never give it a second thought.
It can be very remote in outback OZ. I also often go 1 hour or more without seeing anyone on the road and I am often traveling alone.
There is often no mobile (cell) phone signal for hours at a time.
If I was riding anything but a Japanese bike I would not have the confidence to do that.
The only spare parts that I carry on my travels are fuses. I used to carry 500ml (3/4 pint) of oil for a top-up but I have even given up on that now as it has never needed it and it is completely oil tight. I do carry two puncture repair kits (large and small holes) but I don't consider those as spare parts.

Macka

I am curious as to when exactly your check engine lite came on and when it went off.....The only HOnda parts I really carry that are specific are the plug boots that when built in a certain country, seem to have failure issues.....

Macka · Jul 14, 2017

Chris, if your hand is small enough you can get a short ring spanner (wrench to you guys) onto the rear header nuts after removing the side panels.
Just rotate the pipe clear of the RH side cover.
I never had the light come on whilst riding, it would only stay on after trying to restart a hot engine and then give code 19.
If the light did not go off after a few seconds as per usual I knew it was not going to start.
That is why I never worried too much about it letting me down. Just wait a little while and it always restarted and would run happily for hours.
I seems that once running it will keep going like a lot of car engines will do.
I think that is because the ECU will look at both the Crank AND Cam Sensors and accept either signal once running. I know many car ECUs do that.
I believe that it needs BOTH to start but NOT BOTH to run, as is the case with many car systems.
On older EFI systems that had only a Crank Sensor and no Cam Sensor the engine would stop whilst driving if the Crank Sensor failed.
It would be an interesting experiment for you Chris to disconnect the CKP Sensor whilst the engine is running and see what happens.
It cannot do any harm.
Try it and let us know. It would confirm or reject what I said above. In the case of the NT I am presuming, not knowing as I have never tried it myself.

Macka

DirtFlier · Jul 14, 2017

Both times my bike wouldn't restart after stopping for fuel, the Check Engine Light was not ON beforehand. In fact, I don't recall it being ON once I got the engine started. It wasn't until I got home that I checked for codes in the ECM and got a 19.

Coyote Chris · Jul 19, 2017

Macka said:
Chris, if your hand is small enough you can get a short ring spanner (wrench to you guys) onto the rear header nuts after removing the side panels.
Just rotate the pipe clear of the RH side cover.
I never had the light come on whilst riding, it would only stay on after trying to restart a hot engine and then give code 19.
If the light did not go off after a few seconds as per usual I knew it was not going to start.
That is why I never worried too much about it letting me down. Just wait a little while and it always restarted and would run happily for hours.
I seems that once running it will keep going like a lot of car engines will do.
I think that is because the ECU will look at both the Crank AND Cam Sensors and accept either signal once running. I know many car ECUs do that.
I believe that it needs BOTH to start but NOT BOTH to run, as is the case with many car systems.
On older EFI systems that had only a Crank Sensor and no Cam Sensor the engine would stop whilst driving if the Crank Sensor failed.
It would be an interesting experiment for you Chris to disconnect the CKP Sensor whilst the engine is running and see what happens.
It cannot do any harm.
Try it and let us know. It would confirm or reject what I said above. In the case of the NT I am presuming, not knowing as I have never tried it myself.

Macka

EXCELLENT IDEA!!!! I will try it! My case sealant and the new sensor are now here.....When I get back from watching 17 B-25s , 2 B29s, a B1B, a B-2, a B-52, and a B17 attack Oshkosh Wisconsin in the reinactment of "30 Seconds over Oshkosh" I will try the experiment then change the sensor.
1. Start engine. Pull sensor connector. Watch for check engine light. Stop engine. Start engine without putting plug back. See light. Put connector back in. Start engine. See what happens.