Not what we wanted to hear about older mc riders

DirtFlier

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This is not new and the phenomenon has been around for at least 10-15 years, perhaps longer. The term used was "returning riders" without implying that they are generally older than the norm which was already a high number because we're getting very few new riders in their teens and 20s. Young, new riders these days seem to be in their 30s and 40s.

Anyhow the problem with returning riders is that they rode at a time and place - often during college - where the roads were much less congested and pace of traffic less frantic, plus they rode scooters or small bikes which are pretty much ignored by adult riders today. Now, these returning riders have a lot more disposable income so they buy something way too large and powerful for their meager skills. If they had any skills 30-years ago, they have all but gone away and other than knowing the location of the controls they are newbies. I would strongly suggest that any returning rider take a Basic Riding Course for their own good - you need to start at the beginning because some riding skills are not intuitive and won't come to you as you ride down the road.

I was an MSF instructor for 15 years, 1991-2006 and in that time saw many self-proclaimed "experienced riders" who could barely ride!
 
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Phil Tarman

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I was an MSF instructor for 15 years, 1991-2006 and in that time saw many self-proclaimed "experienced riders" who could barely ride!
I've never been a MSF instructor and I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night, but I did have a neighbor in Ft Morgan who was presumed to be a great rider because he'd been riding "forever" and had had several bikes. But, we were talking one day and he mentioned how dangerous it was to use the front brake. I said something bright like, "Huh?" and he proceeded to tell me that using the front brake would cause you to go down and that you should never use it, but only the rear brake.

Not long after that he had an in-town crash when he ran into a car at a stop-light. He quit riding after that and said that he was just getting too old.
 

RedLdr1

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This is not new and the phenomenon has been around for at least 10-15 years, perhaps longer.
It isn't new... I saw the "returning riders" issue when I was moonlighting at a shop back in the early 80's. At the time I was assigned at Fort Huachuca, AZ. There were plenty of "Grey Power" folks in Arizona who wanted to buy a touring bike. A "well seasoned" rider, as we called old farts then, would come in and want a GoldWing, Venture, or Voyager (The original touring bikes, not the current incarnations) to tour with his wife. When asked about riding experience a lot would talk about riding a WLA when they were in the Army during WWII or Korea. No amount of discussion could convince most of them they needed to take a MSF class before getting a big, heavy touring bike. Those who listened and did take the class generally didn't buy any bike. Our well seasoned rider would then usually show back up a day or two after the bike was hauled in on a flat bed. They were usually on crutches and accompanied by a very annoyed wife telling us they wanted their money back. While the owner wouldn't refund the purchase price he did usually buy back the bike, at a fair price, to become a used "one drop" special. Those "one drops" sold for around 70-80% of a new bikes price depending on the damage and mileage. We had out of state dealers calling in to check on "one drop" specials...:rolleyes1: While I was moonlighting we didn't have any seasoned rider fatalities...just a lot of wrist, arm, ankle, knee, and hip injuries. And some really ticked wives...especially if they were on the back when the "one drop" occurred... :eek1:
 
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I'm a returning rider, about 8 years ago, after 15 years without a bike. I went down 2 years ago on my C14 in some gravel on a downhill corner. It made me realize how my reaction time and skills on these newer high powered bikes had been lost, or never gained. So, I am one of those "old farts" that thought I was an experienced rider since I had owned 12 motorcycles in the past. I bought a Z750S Kawasaki, then on to an NT700V for a lower powered and lighter ride. I had lost my confidence and found myself being very cautious and hard braking going into turns, making me an even more dangerous rider to myself and others.

I decided to take the two day on the road, Advanced Rider Course with Stayin Safe. Eric Trow and his other instructor, Randy helped me regain my confidence and I learned a lot about cornering, awareness of my surroundings, and low speed turn arounds to name a few items. You are never to old to learn something new. In fact the six of us that took the course vowed to meet again in three years to take this course again so we can keep riding.

I consider MSF courses important, I've taken two of them, but they cannot compare to actual real life riding situations met on the road. I met Dan, VZSHADOW on this forum, that took this course also. Ride on and ride safe! BB
 

DirtFlier

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Some of those returning riders on new bikes way too fast and heavy for them barely make it out of sight of the dealership before they crash! Holding up a 250 cc Honda when you were a young man in the military or in college is a lot different than holding up a 900 pound monster at 60+ years of age with barely any muscle tone. :-(

I'd often tell students "Driving a car for 20+ years has little to no relationship to riding a motorcycle. You know the rules of the road but everything else is a new experience." Of course, the older gents probably went out and bought new high dollar, beautiful & heavy bikes and if they were lucky they didn't crash in the first few months, not that they got any better at riding. I'd call it mostly luck.
 
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DirtFlier

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[Not long after that he had an in-town crash when he ran into a car at a stop-light. He quit riding after that and said that he was just getting too old.]

One of the older versions of the MSF course actually had a lesson where the students purposely induced a rear wheel lockup/slide. They learned that the rear brake alone is pretty useless and can sometimes be downright dangerous. Our NTs have combined braking so stomping on the rear brake is less likely to cause a rear wheel lockup.
 

junglejim

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I decided to take the two day on the road, Advanced Rider Course with Stayin Safe. Eric Trow and his other instructor, Randy helped me regain my confidence and I learned a lot about cornering, awareness of my surroundings, and low speed turn arounds to name a few items. You are never to old to learn something new. In fact the six of us that took the course vowed to meet again in three years to take this course again so we can keep riding.
That is a very good course to take. I recommend it too, just like bearbait51 and vzshadow. I have taken MSF classes too, but they don't compare. In my last MSF Advanced Rider class the weather was so bad that the instructor finally called off the class when there were just 3 of us left (counting the instructor). I thought it was great because the wind and rain made it more challenging and a better learning experience. A rider has to learn how to handle adverse riding conditions, hopefully before he finds himself in them.

There were no young riders in the "Stayin' Safe" class that I took. But it gave me a good chance to compare my riding with other senior riders. And, as a group, the senior riders had some issues. A couple of cocky guys on BMWs found out they were human, and a couple guys on big Harleys found our Harleys are bigger than their muscles can handle easily. The most difficult part for me was to put my old ideas and habits aside and listen to the instruction.
 

DirtFlier

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[...The most difficult part for me was to put my old ideas and habits aside and listen to the instruction...]

For that very reason, I've found over the years that women usually made better students than men, IF they had to strength to control the bike. They don't bring a whole bunch of preconceived ideas with them...unlike the male of the species!

I agree about the MSF courses only offering the basics. I've always felt the state needed a basic course, then in 6-months you would come back with your own bike to take the intermediate level course. And until you passed the intermediate course, you'd still be riding on a temporary permit. As it is now, passing the basic course in most states provides a riding test waiver so you get your endorsement automatically, without having to go to the DMV with your own bike.

And going by accident stats - at least for OH - it appears that having an endorsement has not helped reduce the number of motorcycle accidents. If anything, it has risen. Of course there are lots of factors that come into play so it's difficult to condemn with any certainty the current system.
 
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Coyote Chris

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This is not new and the phenomenon has been around for at least 10-15 years, perhaps longer. The term used was "returning riders" without implying that they are generally older than the norm which was already a high number because we're getting very few new riders in their teens and 20s. Young, new riders these days seem to be in their 30s and 40s.

Anyhow the problem with returning riders is that they rode at a time and place - often during college - where the roads were much less congested and pace of traffic less frantic, plus they rode scooters or small bikes which are pretty much ignored by adult riders today. Now, these returning riders have a lot more disposable income so they buy something way too large and powerful for their meager skills. If they had any skills 30-years ago, they have all but gone away and other than knowing the location of the controls they are newbies. I would strongly suggest that any returning rider take a Basic Riding Course for their own good - you need to start at the beginning because some riding skills are not intuitive and won't come to you as you ride down the road.

I was an MSF instructor for 15 years, 1991-2006 and in that time saw many self-proclaimed "experienced riders" who could barely ride!
I agree with DF. Here are a bushel basket more facts or statistics, your choice, that just show to me that this is an old man's sport now...much more than it was in the 1960s-1970s.
https://brandongaille.com/32-compelling-motorcycle-demographics/

But the enemy has changed also......the average drivers we are going up against are way different than they were back in 1970. This week, in the Spokane, a 35 year old lady motorcyclist on a Triumph was killed by a woman who blew twice the legal limit. She had just dropped off her child at school.....
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2017/oct/26/motorcyclist-killed-when-struck-by-suv-in-spokane-/#/0
 

DirtFlier

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In the 90s, "distracted driving" (cell phones) had become a major problem in all sorts of road accidents. And at the time, no one even conceived texting while driving which unfortunately is still legal in many states. At least to me, texting while driving is about 10x worse. We've all experienced cars going too slowly or even drifting into our lane because of the driver looking down at some @#$%! personal device!

My guess is that it is rarely an emergency text and mostly idle chatter.
 
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Coyote Chris

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In the 90s, "distracted driving" (cell phones) had become a major problem in all sorts of road accidents. And at the time, no one even conceived texting while driving which unfortunately is still legal in many states. At least to me, texting while driving is about 10x worse. We've all experienced cars going too slowly or even drifting into our lane because of the driver looking down at some @#$%! personal device!

My guess is that it is rarely an emergency text and mostly idle chatter.
It is interesting to listen to psychologists talk about cell phone addiction and why addicts seem to think they need to look at their phones when they get an email or text. Or why people refuse to use bluetooth, even though I dont think it helps much with the distraction. part. Here in the Pacific North West, as a first responder, I think I got my first Motorola Brick around the middle of the 1990s, but cell phone coverage away from town was very iffy. Here are some interesting stats from the turn of the century to 2008....
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2951952/

Now with most humans in the US with a cellphone, and many try and use GPS NaV while driving, or use complex information automotive screens, eating, grooming, etc, it is very tough to tell exactly HOW many are being killed or maimed, because people lie. It is fairly straight forward for our dectectves to tell if someone is useing a cell phone in voice mode at the time of a crash..... But what if someone recieves a text and then tries to answer that text? IF they never get to the send button part of the text, how is a detective to know if a person was texting at the time of the crash? I suspect that many kids have erased/done away with the cell phone even before the supena arrives at the house for the phone......
 

RedLdr1

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But what if someone recieves a text and then tries to answer that text? IF they never get to the send button part of the text, how is a detective to know if a person was texting at the time of the crash?
All of the text messages to a cell phone are in the providers cellular switch info... They won't see the one where you didn't hit "Send" but they will see everything else...like all the messages and calls, to and from, before the impact.

I suspect that many kids have erased/done away with the cell phone even before the supena arrives at the house for the phone......
Good for them...it just shows they have serious case of dumb :butt1: and need a little corrective action by the legal system. It isn't a big deal little Suzy "lost her phone", just subpoena their call records from their cellular carrier. They will have it all with time stamps down to the second... And those time stamps can be used to tie in with the Emergency Data Recorder (EDR) ala "black box" in modern cars. If you have a GM car with OnStar the amount of data available to law enforcement is unbelievable...
 

Coyote Chris

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All of the text messages to a cell phone are in the providers cellular switch info... They won't see the one where you didn't hit "Send" but they will see everything else...like all the messages and calls, to and from, before the impact.



Good for them...it just shows they have serious case of dumb :butt1: and need a little corrective action by the legal system. It isn't a big deal little Suzy "lost her phone", just subpoena their call records from their cellular carrier. They will have it all with time stamps down to the second... And those time stamps can be used to tie in with the Emergency Data Recorder (EDR) ala "black box" in modern cars. If you have a GM car with OnStar the amount of data available to law enforcement is unbelievable...
Very true. When I was with the patrol in 2004, the black box dump and cell phone records were important back then...cant remember if there was a supoenia needed for the black box dump.
BTW, I had an aquaintence have a car stolen last week and once the car stopped, On star was able to "disable" the car and it was recovered.
The problem with the Little Suzy senario is the judicial system, which keeps kicking people back out on the street.
The man who killed three co-workers a few weeks ago had 40 plus arrests, 15 felony convictions, was caught with a gun and NOT given 5 years in the crowbar hotel, and then kicked out on the street so he could find another gun and kill people. Clearly, the state and federal judicial systems are broken.
Only a Terrible swift sword of punishment will effect the use of cell phones behind the wheel. An LEO is no different that us. He/she sees these violators all day long. Just by turning their heads and looking. Have a camera on an LEO's hat for unbeatable evidence. Stop the car, write them up for a $1,000 ticket, and if they dont pay, impound/sell the car. Take the money and buy more LEOs. Stop the plea bargining for drunks, too. Make catch and release a thing of the past. The sad thing is, its that easy. Make violators / felons pay for stopping violators and felons. Ask your politicians why they dont do that......
 

DirtFlier

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[..An LEO is no different that us. He/she sees these violators all day long...Stop the car, write them up for a $1,000 ticket, and if they dont pay, impound/sell the car. Take the money and buy more LEOs...]

I'm sure the telecommunications giants are always busy greasing the wheels in the statehouse and in Congress to make sure nothing stops their sales! :-(
 
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