Check Engine light came on at 14,500 miles? Hard start then light popped up.

[savantelite]

My NT usually starts after a half crank, but this time it took a little over 10 seconds. When it did finally start the check engine light turned on.

History on my bike:

Changed from 91 octane to 85.5 gas at 14,000 miles

missed 12,000 mile valve check and spark plugs

What should I try, what are probably my problems?

 

[savantelite]

One week later, today, I started it up no problem. I have not disconnected the battery, but the check engine light did not come on. What are the possibilities of more occurances? When it did it a week ago I immediatly parked it and didn't start it till today.

 

[dnktng]

It your NT starts now and there isn't a MIL, then whatever caused the hard start and MIL is gone....it was temporary. When you got the MIL it should have given a long & short blinking pattern of the MIL indicating a starting point to troubleshoot. Did you see or get the long/short blinking pattern? If you didn't get the MIL blinking pattern, the code should be stored and can be accessed for your information by shorting a couple of wires in DLC plug. If you have service manual it tells you how to do that, or take it to a dealer and they could do it. I think if you disconnect the battery this information will be lost....so I'd not disconnect the battery yet.

But the good news is it starts now with no MIL. Ride it & see if acts ok or if a MIL appears. If you runs fine it could have been bad gas or maybe the throttle was slightly open when trying to start it....or possibly a lot of other intermittent things. Ride it, and if you get the check engine (MIL), look for the pattern. Then there is a good starting point.

 

[mikesim]

All the engine management is controlled by the ECM. As Gandalf will surely testify, computers sometimes do strange, goofy and inexplicable things for no apparent reason. Keep an eye on it to be sure, but I would ride it and not worry. If it is truly a problem, it will reoccur and then it's time for some diagnostic work thru the DLC.

 

[RedNigel]

After Spearfish I didn't touch my bike for two weeks. It sat in a super hot garage like it always does if Im not on it in the summer.
It also usually starts almost instantaneously.
This time it didnt want to start at all. As if there was no fuel or no spark.
After 4-5 attempts that included some throttle twisting (which I thought might be useless on a fuel injected machine...but what do I know?), it started grudgingly and wouldnt idle as high as it usually does when stone cold

After a short ride it was OK and has been since

 

[DirtFlier]

Have the spark plug caps been changed?

Two years ago in CO I had an incident where the bike was parked in the blazing sun for about an hour. Ambient temp was 100+. When I came out to start the engine, it exhibited the symptoms of a minor case of vapor lock where it wouldn't take throttle smoothly at low RPM, and the emissions system warning light was ON. It did it on two different occasions then never again. Each time, the warning light went OFF after the engine was shutdown with temps returning to normal. On the trip I continued to OR before heading back to OH with nary a hint of the same thing happening so covered another 4000+ miles.

On the original Honda Fi systems, they fired ALL injectors at initial startup. Don't know if the NT is the same way, but if it is "blipping" the throttle during startup will feed too much fuel to the engine. I start my bike with NO throttle and on the few occasions (dementia?) where I forgot it didn't have carbs, it started grudingly as if it was flooded.

 

[NW Kevin]

Had my hard start issue unless throttle cracked all the way open a few weeks ago. Did this after short rides and during a long trip. Hard start and check engine would come on and stay on until I shut it down, restart and light was out. Took to my dealer in Beaverton Oregon had 8k service done and problem checked, they said code 1-9 present and cleared code and checked wiring to CKPS(crank position sensor)but did not replace sensor, they said intermittent failure???!!??. Said they couldn't duplicate the issue so no replacement! It was under warranty so it is noted. Should I have had them replace it or has anyone else had this intermittent failure multiple times and had it go away? Any advice as I take long trips to remote places without cell coverage and is it possible it could fail completely? Thanks. Ride safe & ATGATT.

 

[dnktng]

Should I have had them replace it or has anyone else had this intermittent failure multiple times and had it go away? Any advice as I take long trips to remote places without cell coverage and is it possible it could fail completely?

Having your dealer already checked the wiring to the CKP sensor, and if the CKP sensor failure isn't routinely coming back.....ride it. Yes, it could fail completely but no one knows when. Any CKP sensor could fail completely without giving an intermittent failure first like your NT did. If you get intermittent CKP sensor failures again, then it may be time to replace the sensor.
If you have a CKP sensor failure present the engine will not start or run. So when it does start, the CKP sensor failure has already cleared (intermittent failure) and the ECM has stored that event.
Here is a thread about CKP sensor failures, DTC 19.

 

[charlie b]

If you hold the throttle open during start that alone can trigger a fault since it makes the computer pump more fuel into the engine to compensate. Not sure what fault it throws when you do that, or if it has to be open more than a certain amount.

Best bet is as stated above. Take it in and have them read back the fault codes. If it showed an intermittent failure of one component I'd replace the component. BUT...sometimes that component is not the actual problem, it is just the symptom. The problem may actually be something else, so be aware of any other possible issues.

 

[NW Kevin]

Well guys, had my no start again yesterday only this time it left me stranded on Mt. Hood at White river snow park with no cell service. It wouldn't even start with throttle kicked open. It was pouring rain/snow mix. I tried multiple times to start it to no avail. Tried bump start no go,I ended up sitting for about 45 minutes before it would start. It set the check engine light again. Going back to dealer again. All I can say they better replace the crank position sensor this time in. A word to the wise if you get a no start issue and a code 1-9 on the ecm make the servicing person or dealer replace it and not just clean the connections as per the service manual and tell you it's okay. Also found out my rain suit isn't really waterproof wonderful Cycle Gear stuff?!

 

[dnktng]

Kevin,
Stranded is never good, sorry about your NT.
If you are still under warranty, getting the CKP sensor replaced is probably the next logical thing to do. Keep in mind though, that if you bring your NT and the MIL is clear, the service people can rarely return it to you and say with 100% certainty "we found the reason for your problem." If the shop can replicate the failure and get the MIL to stay on, then they can find the cause and fix it with out guessing. It's the nature of troubleshooting intermittent electrical failures. But with the MIL clear, they start replacing the most likely, ....or most accessible,.....or least expensive part....then you ride it and see if your failure reappears. I hope the shop does replace your CKP sensor and that's the end of your problems. But you may not know for certain until it is ridden a while with no problems.

My limited knowledge of CKP sensors in general is that some (maybe not the NT type) do fail when the engine is turned off hot, and after cooling will be ok until the engine is turned off hot again. I had engine misfire failure codes on a Toyota due to the crank pulley that wasn't tightened to some crazy high torque. IIRC if was like 150 ft-lbs. The CKP sensor was on the crank pulley and that was the start of random misfire codes.

The NT CKP sensor is a simple coil.....not much to fail. The sensor itself has no moving parts and is not in physical contact with anything. The CKP sensor senses from the rotating (rotor) that is bolted to the crank end. It's enclosed under the right engine case cover. The ECM, ECM connectors, wiring, and CKP sensor connector are all more exposed to more rain, dirt, rocks, and general abuse than the CKP sensor.

 

[NW Kevin]

I called the friendly servicing dealer in Beaverton yesterday and explained my issue. I asked if they could order in a new crank position sensor for my bike so it could be replaced on my already documented failure under warranty as it left me stranded. You know what the service writer told me? That they could not do that and that I would have to leave the bike for however many days it took to get the part and I would have to pay for the part. Then if they couldn't duplicate the failure in the shop I would need to pay for the labor also, even though the ecm logged the failure again it's not having a check engine light on at the service center. I explained to him again I live an hours drive from the shop and would like to have it done in one day, he didn't care and thats the way it was period.I explained I bought the bike from them and have all my servicing and tires done by them, he didn't care. Are all Honda bike dealers like this? I have been in the automotive repair business for over 30 years and never had a automotive dealership act this way. A little advice as I am going do to the repair myself.

 

[dnktng]

Kevin, you may have better luck with a different dealer.

Replacing the CKP sensor look easy enough, it is behind the right crankcase cover. If you have a service manual it on page 11-12 in the clutch section.....not the most obvious place for a FI/Ignition component. I'd verify that the sensor was tight and rotor is tight while you're inside the right crankcase cover. Read some of your earlier post, you talked of noise from the right side of engine when cold.......hhhmmmm. And the service manual says to use Three Bond 1207B to seal the crankcase cover. Not sure what that is, or what a substitute for it would be. I'm sure your friendly Honda dealer in Beaverton will sell you some....sorry, that was mean.

Others may have some advice for how to deal with dealers service department.

 

[NW Kevin]

Dan, I think your right about the dealer switch. I haven't got a manual yet but I will have one soon, figured I would do this during down time( nasty winter road deicer time) which will probably start real soon. The noise issue on the right side I will check for looseness of the sensor, that's a good thought. Keep you posted.

 

[Phil Tarman]

It might be worth going over the service manager's head to talk to the general manager or the owner. If that doesn't do any good, I'd sure as heck quit spending my money there.

Your warranty is good at any dealer. I'd start calling one who'd honor it (and show you some respect).

 

[NW Kevin]

Classic, I took it in about a month ago as it was a intermittant no start situation( happened about 9-10 times to me) and they had found logged in the ecm code 1-9 CKP failure code. Said they cleared the code, cleaned the connections and tried to replicate the failure in the shop by letting it run and shutting it off then trying to restart it. Never failed for them (don't know if they tried 1 time or 50 times). Took the bike and rode it on short rides seemed to work okay but seemed to crank longer then before to start it. Took it on a long ride when I had complete no start wouldn't even start with throttle kicked open, I had to wait about a 45 minutes before it would start. Check engine light came on and stayed on until I got home, of course on restart the next morning light is out. Hope this clears it up for you. Wasn't asking them to just replace the part just because I wanted them too, just have it on hand if it needed to be replaced so we both wouldn't need to waste our time. If it turned out to be something else then I understand. Like I said I've been in the automotive parts and service industry for over 30 years and this is not the way to make customers happy and limit their down time.

 

[bicyclist]

service manual says to use Three Bond 1207B to seal the crankcase cover. Not sure what that is, or what a substitute for it would be.

Three Bond is a gasket forming compound. A substitute for it is Permatex Ultra Blue Gasket Maker (81724). It's a so called anaerobic sealer, RTV silicone. It will cure much more rapidly if Permatex surface prep activator is used. NAPA carries the stuff.

edit: I agree with Phil. If the service manager is uncooperative, go over his head. The owner or manager would probably be more sensitive to losing a customer. If you don't get any satisfaction, finding another dealer would be a good idea.

In my experience, good service managers have good relations with the manufacturer reps and can get them to OK warranty claims. Part of it is based on good will. Make the customer happy even if it costs the company something. Of course, the regional rep might be a jerk and the service manager knows he won't cough up.

Of course, if you do it yourself, you'll know how well the job is done and you'll learn something about your bike. The part isn't terribly expensive.