No emission vehicles on the horizon for Tokyo.

DirtFlier

DirtFlier

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I saw on NHK News (Japan) this morning that Tokyo has mandated that autos used in that city & prefecture be emissions free by 2030 and motorcycles will comply by 2035. Both of these are fairly close datelines so I can now understand why Honda will pull out of F-1 after 2021 to devote all energies to meeting these goals.
 
2030 is not far away when you consider how big a change this will be. If all push the same direction an awful lot can be done, like going to the moon.
Not impossible but tough. We will see.

Brad
 
There needs to be huge advances in battery tech. Mainly energy content per given volume. Batteries are currently way too big for how little energy they contain. Not even close to the energy content of gasoline for the same volume. We also need better ways to charge. Having to wait around for 45+ minutes at a service station is not a step forward. For electric motorcycles, I would like to see a standardization of a battery pack. Imagine being able to pull into a station, flip up the faux tank lid, pull out a depleted pack and swap it out for a charged one. Exactly like a propane cylinder exchange.
 
Yes, having all manufacturers agree upon a standard battery for cars and another one for motorcycles will really speed development and acceptance by the public. This cooperation will work in Japan but might be a problem elsewhere!

I seem to recall that some of those electric, rental bicycles or stand-up scooters have a battery that can be easily swapped to keep them in service.
 
I believe the UK has mandated that all vehicles will have to be electric or hydrogen by 2035. They keep changing the date but I believe that is the current one...
 
Asia is were electric scooters/motorcycles are making inroads. NIU scooters have removable batteries. Other countries where two wheel commuting is a way of life is where the development in electrics is occurring. Europe is next. Since commuting on two wheels is not much of a thing in the US it will be slow to catch on here.

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I'm not worried. By the time internal combustion has completely faded out, I'll be well into or past middle age. Who knows what my riding habits will be; if motorcycles are even still allowed on the road in a world of self driving cars and nanny electronics.

AFAIK, Honda released their motorcycle engine chef-d'œuvre years ago. I get to enjoy the symphony essentially daily, but at some point there will be a finale.

vfrv4.png

P.S. I am aware of the CBX, but it only sounds otherworldly approaching redline. The VFR sounds great throughout the entire rev range.
 
Range is going to be an issue for me in regards to electric motorcycles for a LOOONNNGGGG time! The day I rode to Missoula from Greeley I rode 877 miles and the four fuel stops (gasoline for the bike, coffee for me at three of them) took me an average of 20 minutes. So in a 14 hour ride, I spent 1 hour, 20 minutes stopped for fuel. Each leg averaged 175 miles. Would a Zero or any other current electric bike been able to average 70mph while moving (62.6mph including stopped time)? I don't think so. I don't think electric bike in sight is likely to do that until there's a huge increase in battery power density.
 
Phil Tarman said:
Range is going to be an issue for me in regards to electric motorcycles for a LOOONNNGGGG time! The day I rode to Missoula from Greeley I rode 877 miles and the four fuel stops (gasoline for the bike, coffee for me at three of them) took me an average of 20 minutes. So in a 14 hour ride, I spent 1 hour, 20 minutes stopped for fuel. Each leg averaged 175 miles. Would a Zero or any other current electric bike been able to average 70mph while moving (62.6mph including stopped time)? I don't think so. I don't think electric bike in sight is likely to do that until there's a huge increase in battery power density.
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A battery in an electric bike may not have the capacity to do those distances in that timeframe BUT the engineering in all battery and hybrid vehicles charges the batteries in multiple ways including regenerative braking.

I owned a Honda Civic Hybrid for around three years and I was always surprised by how quickly the vehicle could charge a completely flat battery with regenerative braking.

I used to occasionally ascend a mountain range with hairpin turns (I think the US calls them switchbacks). I loved driving spiritedly up this range and the hybrid engine was very willing to assist with additional torque as required. By the time I got to the top of the range the hybrid battery was typically depleted (the hybrid battery was actually 120 nickel metal hydride “D” cells arranged in such an order as to give the required voltage and Amperage).

On travelling down the other side of the range the hybrid battery was always back to fully charged long before I got to the bottom of the range.

So depending on how a vehicle is driven and what the terrain is an electric vehicle can actually go much further than its rated range.

In 2018 or 2019 a Tesla was driven from Sydney to Melbourne only stopping once for a recharge. The trip is around 900Km’s (550 miles) and I believe this result even surprised Tesla at the time.

Seagrass
 
Even if battery density gets there by 2030 for NT-like range, I have to wonder what that means for motorcycles.

The major hurdle I see to the swappable battery pack idea is that motorcycles in the US are just a small percentage of vehicles on the road. Even if the big players in the industry could standardize a battery pack, would charging stations even worry about availability if only 1 or 2 riders came through a day? Here's somewhat recent NHTSA data: "Motorcycles made up 3 percent of all registered vehicles in the United States in 2015 and accounted for only 0.6 percent of all vehicle miles traveled."

It might be that charged battery packs for motorcycles could only be reliably found around major metropolitan areas. If you found yourself riding through the wastelands of Nebraska, you might be forced to plug in and go have some food or catch a movie on your phone. Another hurdle is the swappable pack idea would most likely not be adopted for passenger cars. We really do need the charge time improved.
 
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SuperDave said:
Has anyone seen any recent estimates on how may power plants will be needed to replace gasoline/diesel
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The only thing I have seen is that there is a large assumption everyone will recharge batteries at night when there would be more power available to the grid than daytime. Of course that is not anywhere near real life. It would be a dream. The energy density of gas or diesel is high, would need a lot of watts.
In some places power companies are putting off new construction counting on more efficient use of electricity like LED light conversions and such.
Also you would have to upgrade the transmission/grid to handle the increased load.

Brad
 
GM and Japan are going to release the next generation of battery soon. It will double the energy density at 60 percent the price. I think the generation of battery after that will change everything. The Head of toyota, as i posted on another thread, says the grid will shut down unless things are changed. Japan uses coal and natural gas for power. IIRC they are doing away with their nuclear reactors. JustPassinThru and I agree on one thing. There is a human cost to making little kids mine colbalt for lithium Ion batteries, and there is a cost in dealing with toxic waste after the batteries are done. There are costs to generating power and then charging cars with it. I am happy that in a very few short years I will be gone and wont live to see a day when I cant go touring on a bike cause of the range issue.
 
JustPassinThru said:
I have test-ridden a Zero DS...this in 2015. I was very, very impressed.

I understand another member here had real bad luck with a Zero...I guess the software. That's a danger and something to consider...
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That would be me. It was a lot more than software. They are pure junk. The 2015 Zero SR I had didn’t last no more than 23,000 in 2-years. While on the second set of battery packs, which blow up a month after being installed. The bike went completely dead while traveling on a busy freeway in traffic at 70 MPH. I had to coast to the right shoulder and then far as I could go to the next exit. Then I had to push the bike a half mile and uphill to exit the freeway. I was done with that bike at that moment.
 
Coyote Chris said:
I am happy that in a very few short years I will be gone and wont live to see a day when I cant go touring on a bike cause of the range issue.
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Well this will most likely be my reality when I’m ready to retire and have the time to tour on a motorcycle. Hopefully by then electric motorcycles will have enough range to get me to the state line.
 
My biggest concern would be charge time and infrastructure for charging. When the charge time comes down to 10 to 15 min to fully recharge and there are as many charge stations as there are gas stations today, then I would be comfortable owning an all electric motorcycle / automobile. But then by then, as Chris has said, I won't have to worry about it anyway.
 
Phil Tarman said:
Range is going to be an issue for me in regards to electric motorcycles for a LOOONNNGGGG time! The day I rode to Missoula from Greeley I rode 877 miles and the four fuel stops (gasoline for the bike, coffee for me at three of them) took me an average of 20 minutes. So in a 14 hour ride, I spent 1 hour, 20 minutes stopped for fuel. Each leg averaged 175 miles. Would a Zero or any other current electric bike been able to average 70mph while moving (62.6mph including stopped time)? I don't think so. I don't think electric bike in sight is likely to do that until there's a huge increase in battery power density.
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Phil, electric vehicles are a total loss system. What little regen the system puts back into the batteries is immediately used up and more then you’re back on the throttle.

When I had my Zero, I used it to commute to work taking the same route every day, about 30 miles in each direction. I wound consume between 40-52% of the charge. Things such as speed, head winds, accessories being used what effected the amount of energy been consumed at very different rates. I would ride the bike between 75-80 MPH. The average mileage I got out of a full charge was between 80-85 miles and I had the OEM extended range battery pack installed. The charging time varied between 4 to 14 hours using only the 120V onboard charger. Another thing, once the State Of Charge (SOC) dropped below 20%. The maximum speed the bike would be able to achieve would start to diminish and would continue to do so as the SOC decreased further.

I went on a local rally ride on my Zero to show it off. Rode to the starting point and did the 70 mile loop bad to the starting point. Within a half mile away, the bike would not good any faster than 15 MPH as the SOC was below 5%. The last tenth of a mile my bike was basically a kick scooter. I made it back there and the organizers had a generator on site. I asked that I could plug in my electric motorcycle for an hour to get enough charge to get me home. The owner the generator said it would be fine me to do so. I never took that bike again on a ride such as that.

Electric motorcycles are only good for commuting or urban transport. Since my 2015 Zero, the manufacturer has installed a Level-2 charger that would be able to charge a fully depleted battery in about 4 hours. Also you would be able to use the current electric vehicle charging network.
 
Chucksklrst said:
My biggest concern would be charge time and infrastructure for charging. When the charge time comes down to 10 to 15 min to fully recharge and there are as many charge stations as there are gas stations today, then I would be comfortable owning an all electric motorcycle / automobile. But then by then, as Chris has said, I won't have to worry about it anyway.
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Well this will be my and my children’s concerns. Also a few other Bilion people’s concerns as well. I’m thinking that I have up to 40 more years to go before my time comes to an end.
 
The earth revolves. The stars slide across the heavens. This, and change, will continue.
Like it or not, the days of wine and roses, when it comes to energy, are over. I remember 20 cent a gallon gas. And 50 cent an hour jobs. Nothing is permanent. Ask any blacksmith how the livery stable business is. Bet he doesn't say that the motor vehicles are a passing fad.
Yes, I miss seeing AND HEARING a Chevy Nova with a double quad 409 stuffed into the engine bay, turning a four speed Muncie and a 4:11 rear end. Big old bias ply tires smothered in a cloud of burning rubber.
I also know that my 178hp 1700 lb two passenger SlingShot is probably the final toy of that kind that I will own. Either Father Time or common sense will decide.
HOWEVER, it was a helluva good ride while it lasted, wasn't it?!?!?!?
 
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