Engine code 19 and subsequent stalling

[Cameron]

Background - I've had the engine not start previously and got the engine code 19. The bike would turn over, but never start - like there was no spark. After waiting 20-30 minutes the bike would start right up.

Commuted to and from work on Tuesday without issue, in the 30-40 degree temps. Stopped at the house for 15 minutes and then rode 10 minutes to a friends to drop something off. No issue. Drove about 5 minutes from there to visit another friend in the hospital. No problem. After a 20-30 minute visit, the bike will turn over, but not start - engine code 19. Opened the half-full gas tank to ensure it wasn't a vacuum, but no change. Crank, but would not run. Went back inside for 20 minutes or so and when I returned it started right up. No issues on the ride home.

Yesterday morning it was in the upper 20s and when I took the bike out - after being on the Battery Tender overnight, it wouldn't start immediately - cranked plenty fast but no "spark". Then when it did run, it felt like it wasn't hitting on all the cylinders. I increased rpm to 7K or so to see if it was something sticking, and it seemed to idle okay. Hooked up my electric gear and took it to the top of my driveway, where it promptly conked out. Drifted it back to the garage and got out my PC800 - old reliable - which promptly wouldn't start. Even hooked up to the car battery, all it did was turn over, regardless of choke or throttle. So I put the PC800 back and tried the NT again and it started without issue. Drive to work was without incident.

Starting for home after work, it ran rough again so I had to manually keep the rpms up for 5 minutes or so. At that point it idled fine and I had no further issue. So this points to a potentially "cold" issue. Thought it might be the gas, but it was fine for the first half-tank. Fuel filter would be more of an issue on acceleration, I would think, rather than idling, but with the computer, it could be trying to do something based on bad input, so I'm at a loss.

I know I've provided a lot of info, but I didn't want to miss anything significant. Oh, it's not time for an oil or filter change but the antifreeze is just over 2 years. Can't think of anything else. Hoping someone else has diagnosed this problem so I can stop this crap once and for all.

Cameron

 

[NW Kevin]

Cameron, I've been down this road with the code 19 problems, left me stranded multiple times take my word for it just replace the CKP and be done with the problem. Replaced mine back in October of 2013 haven't had a single problem since that. It is quite a tear down to do the job but worth it. Dealer refused to replace the CKP with multiple times of the showing code 19 when I took it to them to fix the issue under warranty. Order the sensor and all the exhaust gaskets, get some sealer for the case and get to it.

 

[EX Winger]

Sprak plug caps?? not sure of code 19, also possible water / condensation in fuel tanks, or possibly OL STALE gas. I suggest trying some Stabil or sea foam mixed in gas, I keep Stabil mixture in my tanks and keep them full, Harley full of 92 Oct with no ehtonol in it plus stabil, starts and runs good with no spit and sputer just like the NT on pump regular and stabil. A thought with the extream cold weather you all are getting could the fuel in the fuel lines be trying to freeze up,? Consider getting some of the fuel deicer/ HEET etc and add some of the to tank and run it long enough to get it thourghly ran into all of the fuel system.

Eldon

 

[Woodaddict]

my guess would be battery. a bad cell, after plugging in electrics it stalls. battery has to be good or if battery is weak/bad won't keep engine running. there is no magneto to keep running if battery is bad

 

[dnktng]

Cameron, a code 19 is a Crank Position sensor error. It is one of a few codes that will not allow the engine to start when it is active. So if you have that code before you start the engine, don't expect the engine to start. Like NW Kevin said, it can leave you with a dead motorcycle. Some codes allow the engine to run in a fail safe mode....code 19 CKP error is not one of them.

 

[seagrass]

Reading the description of your problem (thanks for the thorough information) my immediate thought was the crank position sensor as the symptoms you describe are fairly common with this type of fault.

Kevin and Dan have both confirmed that code 19 is indeed a crank position sensor fault so that is quite likely the cause of your problem. If the bike is still under warranty get it to your dealer for them to fix the problem.

 

[Warren]

Cameron, I've been down this road with the code 19 problems, left me stranded multiple times take my word for it just replace the CKP and be done with the problem. Replaced mine back in October of 2013 haven't had a single problem since that. It is quite a tear down to do the job but worth it. Dealer refused to replace the CKP with multiple times of the showing code 19 when I took it to them to fix the issue under warranty. Order the sensor and all the exhaust gaskets, get some sealer for the case and get to it.

What's the Honda part number for the CKP ?

 

[dnktng]

CKP, crank position sensor is Honda part number 30300-MEW-921 .

It is called a Pulse Generator in the parts drawings and shown with the starter clutch(?). It must be in the witness protection program because Honda changed its name and moved it to a drawing for parts on the other side of the engine.

GENERATOR, PULSE 30300-MEW-921 $46.67 $32.09

 

[Warren]

Thanks. I was having a hard time finding it.

 

[Cameron]

I doubt it's old gas as I commute year round so there's always fresh fuel. I also don't think it's the battery as it cranks strong and the other times when this happened, the heated gear wasn't on as it was summertime. I'll probably have to bite the bullet and plan to do a teardown to replace the part. I don't understand why merely leaving it for 20 minutes makes the problem magically go away. Never heard of anything like it. Thanks for everyone's thoughts.

 

[dnktng]

Carmeron, google "crank position sensor hot" . There seem to be many makes of vehicles that have crank position sensors that fail when they get hot after an engine is turned off and loses its cooling, and then need some time to cool to work again. This may be the same failure mode you are experiencing. Never experienced it myself, possibly someone else here has and will chime in.

 

[Phil Tarman]

I can remember back when my Dad, a corporate pilot, moved from the Model B50 Beech Twin Bonanza to the Model B55 Baron. The Twin Bonanza had carburetors but the Baron had fuel injection. Hot starts, after the plane had been shut off for a few minutes could be really difficult. There were techniques specific to the engine that worked most of the time, but you only had one or two shots at it.

Let the thing sit for an hour or so and it would fire right up.

 

[seagrass]

Heat affected crank position sensors are probably one of the most common causes of failure in these devices. The problem has been well known about for about 15 years or so in some vehicles BUT the problem has been getting less common as technology has improved. I am starting to wonder if Honda got a bad batch of these.

Years ago the trick to get the engine to start was to splash water on the crank position sensor to cool it down, the engine would then often start first time.

 

[Cameron]

The idea of basically overheating the CPS due to a hot engine being turned off (and thus the coolant can't circulate) makes a lot of sense. I did do some other reading and others with CPS issues have noted damage to its wiring from spinning belts, pinched wires, etc. That'll be the first place I look for this, before I fork out $ and do a teardown of the plastic and removal of the exhaust. I'll post what I discover.

In the mean time, after Friday's 6-8 inches of snow, I awoke to 58 degrees for the slushy, rainy ride in this morning. Then it's supposed to get down to the single digits tonight and a high of only 12 tomorrow when all that wetness refreezes and I'll be relegated to taking the train again, which sucks. This is some wacky weather.

 

[DirtFlier]

[Years ago the trick to get the engine to start was to splash water on the crank position sensor to cool it down, the engine would then often start first time.]

On the NT, the CPK lives inside the clutch cover cavity so live in a hot oil environment all the time. On a recent trip to the Blue Ridge Mtns, I had two no-start incidents but otherwise the bike ran fine. Once home I checked and found fault code 19 inside the ECM so have ordered a new CPK.

 

[hobst]

Yes it does point to that. triumph had a problem with the sensor overheating on their 4 cylinder bikes a decade or so ago.
I had a 1200 that would run fine then if you stopped for 5 would run bad and stall at lights etc. Leave it for 20 and it would run fine again until you stopped or got caught in traffic.
The heat changes the resistance of the sensors pickup coil and confuses the cpu. Change the sensor and all's well. There's a few cars out there that have the same problem.

 

[Cameron]

Having been having the Code 19 on and off now for months, usually during a steady-pace ride and then closing the throttle. Then accelerating again and it would miss now and again. I've gotten good at recognizing the symptoms and when it happens, I will give the throttle a blip and close it again in hopes the engine will die. When it does, I hit the starter and it resets something and the bike runs normally again. I've been tiring of it recently and having purchased another crank position sensor, will be contacting my bike shop to install it in the near future.

I also own a sidecar but have been having fuel leakage issues, so it's been idle in my garage for over a year. Having that repaired soon too so I may wait for that to come back before I send my NT for work so I don't lose any commuting rides in this wonderful weather.

 

[Phil Tarman]

I also own a sidecar

Cameron, what's your sidecar?

 

[Cameron]

Cameron, what's your sidecar?

Sorry Phil, I totally missed your question. The sidecar is made by SideBike and is the Comanche version. It's been out of commission for a couple years but I'm getting it back up to snuff for the summer. Just have to fix a leaking float bowl on one of the carbs of the Yamaha FJ1200. It's a lot of fun and gets a lot of looks. Also great for carting people and stuff around when I don't want to be in a car but I need more space than the NT.

 

[Phil Tarman]

Wow! What a great-looking rig! I keep thinking about a sidecar for a few years down the road. That looks like way more fun than a Ural.