Here's an Idea

[Phil Tarman]

Maybe nothing more, but it's an idea.

Looking at the coverage of the new '13 Hondas, in particular the 500cc models, three bikes using the same powertrain and basic chassis, made me start to think about a modular approach that Honda may be taking to new models.

So here's my idea. What if they were to add a third cylinder to the 500cc engine? Then they'd have a 750cc triple. They could build on that with variants: Sports, Naked, Adventure, and Sport-Touring bikes.

So there could be Deauville ST750 using that engine and with a shaft drive. Brilliant! I hereby donate this idea to the Honda product development team.

Now, how do I go about giving it to them?

 

[Warren]

I think Yamaha is already working on a 750 triple.

 

[junglejim]

Phil, I think you're in line for the head of R&D (research and design) for Red Green Engineering. And I thought I had cabin fever.

Really that is a pretty good idea. But I don't think a re-build of the NT would sell any better than our beloved NT did. Honda obviously didn't put much into the marketing budget for the NTs.

Taking your modular disign a little different direction, I never unserstood why motorcycle companies never made different frame sizes (like bicycles) to accomodate riders with different length measurements. Aftermarket bar risers, lowering kits, etc. have made a good living off the motorcycle companies making one size of each model. The Japenese are so efficient minded they may not have been able to do it, but the European companies might have done it.

 

[tawilke46]

If Honda would put the VFR 800 four in a ST platform........now that would be stormin'. The engine is already a proven mill. Could even be downsized to a 750.
Upgraded to get better mileage of course.

 

[BigBill]

What I would like to see is a slightly updated NT... with the engine & transmission from the NC700X/S/D (low RPM, high torque, 6-speed DCT option) with the NT's shaft drive, fairing, windshield, panniers etc.

 

[seagrass]

That is a good idea Phil and I believe it fits in with the Honda methodology quite well.

Not many people know that a lot of Honda car models share many components. For example the Honda Accord, CRV and Odessey all share the same engine block, crankshaft, pistons, bearings, conrods, compression rings etc. but they use different ECU programming and possibly heads etc to change the power and torque characteristics to suit the vehicles intended use.

Moving this to the motorcycle division would be a natural extension of Honda's methodology and indeed the NC700 sources some of its engine design/parts from the Honda Jazz.

 

[Phil Tarman]

I think Yamaha is already working on a 750 triple.

Bet it won't be a sport-tourer!

Bill, I don't think a sport-tourer with the NC700 engine would have the performance we'd like. Maybe an engine with similar torque characteristics would work just fine with a 6-speed (I, personally, would pass on the DCT), but I think it would need to be bigger to have satisfactory acceleration and high-speed cruising ability desirable for LD rides out here in the west.

 

[BigBill]

Reviews have been surprisingly favorable with the NC700X, even with the DCT, and it gets great MPGs compared to the NT with only slightly less HP, so I don't think power would be an issue at all really, though a bigger, more powerful engine would be good even if it hurt the MPGs a bit.

I guess thats what marks a dividing line between higher speed long distance cruising and a commuter...I would prefer something closer to the NC700X with a fairing (which they offer in Europe) for commuting. I plan to get a big HD for long rides eventually.

That missing sixth gear could be part of the reason the NT is not as popular here in the US.

 

[BigBill]

Here it is, just has a slightly smaller fairing and the panniers are an add-on... V4, 6-speed (w/DCT option).

http://www.honda.co.uk/motorcycles/adventure/#!/crosstourer/specifications/


http://www.visordown.com/road-tests-first-rides/first-ride-honda-crosstourer-dct/20130.html

 

[BigBill]

Here is a better look...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCpYldePiD0

 

[DirtFlier]

[...compared to the NT with only slightly less HP, so I don't think power would be an issue at all really...]

The NT is rated at 67 HP while the NC has 46 HP, according to everything I've read. 21 HP is quite a difference although the NC's low RPM torque may make feel almost equal at low engine speeds. Fitting final drive to a motorcycle (versus chain/belt drive) typically robs 5% power, regardless of brand or model. I have a friend who has an NC - among other bikes - and she said it's not a long distance bike.

Phil - adding a 3rd NT cylinder using existing hardware won't be an easy task and would fly in the face of "modular," which typically means to use common parts in different guises to save money. The NT cylinders have a tunnel for a cam chain and there is a definite front and rear cylinder. Making a W-3 would be impossible for space reasons and using the cylinders to make an inline-3 would require 3 cam chains, 3 cams, fitting with an extra wide crankshaft for 3 sprockets, etc - hardly a cost-saving path.

I'm seriously thinking of buying a new CB500F next spring for use as an in-town bike or for day rides.

 

[Mellow]

Yep, it reminds me of a Gladius, but with a slightly smaller engine. Great looking bike.

The Gladius engine is used in the updated V-Strom 650... this is the bike I'm considering as a 2nd bike maybe sometime next year.

 

[vzshadow]

Maybe nothing more, but it's an idea.

Looking at the coverage of the new '13 Hondas, in particular the 500cc models, three bikes using the same powertrain and basic chassis, made me start to think about a modular approach that Honda may be taking to new models.

So here's my idea. What if they were to add a third cylinder to the 500cc engine? Then they'd have a 750cc triple. They could build on that with variants: Sports, Naked, Adventure, and Sport-Touring bikes.

So there could be Deauville ST750 using that engine and with a shaft drive. Brilliant! I hereby donate this idea to the Honda product development team.

Now, how do I go about giving it to them?

Triumph makes inline triples at 675, 800, 1050 and 1200cc. Unfortunately the Sprint at 1050 cc was discontinued with the arrival of the Trophy. There are fantastic buys on the discontinued Spirit if you can find one. We already know about that. I tried one and found it to be more bike than an old guy like me needs. I have ridden the Tiger at 800cc , a great ride, and it would make a spectacular sport tourer if configured as such. It's a chain drive and I know that would be a deal breaker for many of you.

 

[Mellow]

Yep, that V-Twin has seen duty on the SV, DL and now the new DL. It is a TERRIFIC power plant (virtually bulletproof, too) and Suzuki has done a good job tuning it to the specific bikes. I just noticed this morning that a dealer in Oregon is offering bikes at 8100 out the door - its in the "What prices are you paying" thread.

I didn't care all that much for the metalic orange color but the 2013s look like blue or white.. that blue might have my name on it... but, still have some other financial things to take care of before I can start thinking about a bike...

 

[charlie b]

Sharing is not new with Honda. V45 and V65 were in cruiser and sport formats. Ascot. etc, etc.

I'd love to see the VFR made into more of a touring bike. I'd love it even more if they used the smaller engine as long as it was still a shaft drive. Weight would still be an issue, along with cost. Those were the three things that attracted me to the NT, cost, weight and shaft drive (with a full fairing).

 

[bicyclist]

So there could be Deauville ST750 using that engine and with a shaft drive.

And it really would be the K75 that BMW no longer builds! For those not familiar, the K75 has a 3 cylinder inline with a 120? crank. The thing is smooth as glass and regarded by many as the best engine they ever built.

I'd love to see Honda build a modern 750 triple with excellent fuel mileage, shaft drive, fully adjustable suspension, electronic cruise control and weighing under 500 lbs. I know it'll never happen. They couldn't just slap a cylinder on the side of the CB500 motor. The whole thing would have to be redesigned and would be expensive to build.

In my opinion, the 750 class is the sweet spot for motorcycle engine size. Bikes in that class have enough grunt to get you down the road and are lighter and more fuel efficient than the big boys. The Crosstourer is 1200cc, weighs over 600 lbs, has a 33?" seat height and gets 45mpg per Honda. Nice looking bike, but way more in specification and cost than I'm interested in.

I think that the DCT transmission is very interesting. I'd like to try it. It can be shifted either automatically or manually and delivers lightning fast shifts from what I read. It isn't a slushbox transmission, but a regular transmission with two clutches, one for the odd numbered gears and the other for the even numbers. They take turns operating and allow the next pair of gears to be preselected. Comes from F1 race technology and is well proven.

 

[Phil Tarman]

Dirtflr said, "Phil - adding a 3rd NT cylinder using existing hardware won't be an easy task and would fly in the face of "modular," which typically means to use common parts in different guises to save money. The NT cylinders have a tunnel for a cam chain and there is a definite front and rear cylinder. Making a W-3 would be impossible for space reasons and using the cylinders to make an inline-3 would require 3 cam chains, 3 cams, fitting with an extra wide crankshaft for 3 sprockets, etc - hardly a cost-saving path."

I wasn't thinking of adding a 3rd cylinder to the NT engine, but to the NC's engine.

 

[tawilke46]

The Gladius engine is used in the updated V-Strom 650... this is the bike I'm considering as a 2nd bike maybe sometime next year.

I like the 650 Wee so much, I too am thinking of getting one for myself as a second bike after my son takes the '09 I have now to California next year. Only paid $5,800 for the '09 with 85 miles on it. Got to be the best bike for the money I ever bought!

 

[Rob]

i assume hondfa will bring the big crosstourer to the states to compete with the other big ADV bikes (GS, Tiger Explorer, Super Tenere, Stelvio, Multistrada, etc). But I wonder what they plan to do with the CrossRUNNER - which is a 780cc V4 chain.

 

[Mellow]

The crossrunner is really just the old vfr 800 w/adv styling... I'm surprised they wouldn't offer it up since the DOT stuff should have been done already w/VFR.. maybe a new model requires all new 'stuff' to be filed.