New Kawasaki Ninja

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Have you checked out the current issue of Cycle World. Looks like Kawasaki has come up with a Supercharged Literbike (Currently, Track only) packing 300 HP. They will be offering a similar bike for street use presumably so that they can call their racing machine a "production bike"

I cringe when I see such an "offering". That would mean that anyone who can plunk down 30K can ride off with this bike. I was under the impression that assisted suicide was only legal in a couple of states.
 

tawilke46

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I think I saw a UTube video that stated the "production" street legal bike would have around 200 hp. Yep you can envision squids tearing down the roads on these things.......hooliganism enabler.
 
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Tim,
It really scares me what some companies put out for general consumption--cars included. A friend of mine recently bought a Mustang with 700 HP--and that wasn't the fastest one they make. I predict that the insurance companies will again mobilize like they did in the late 60' and early 70's and make the insurance policies virtually unaffordable for the person who has a need for muscle. They have already started with sportbikes. My 250 Ninja costa more to insure than my NT.
 

Phil Tarman

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I would hope that the technology that they're using on this bike filters down to smaller-displacement engines. A supercharged 250cc bike could be an awesome basis for a light-weight sport-touring bike.
 

mikesim

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I would hope that the technology that they're using on this bike filters down to smaller-displacement engines. A supercharged 250cc bike could be an awesome basis for a light-weight sport-touring bike.
I would like to see that as well. Based upon the Kaw's presumed 200hp one liter street engine and scale that down to about 350cc, that would give you hp in the range of our NT. The only thing that would concern me with an engine with that high of specific output is reliability. IMNSHO, reliability is paramount in a sport touring steed.

Mike
 
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I'd much rather see a turbocharger rather than a supercharger. Much more efficient. Superchargers make good power but also suck up that much more gas, which is one reason they aren't used much in vehicles of any type. I suspect a SC 350 would get gas mileage in the 30's at best.
 
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Does mileage matter to someone who would purchase a 200 horse power motorcycle? I don't think touring in on their agenda, of one of these riders. Riding down the expressway on one wheel is more likely to be the type of riding you would see done by such a motorcycle. Passing you over a double yellow line.
 

mikesim

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I'd much rather see a turbocharger rather than a supercharger. Much more efficient. Superchargers make good power but also suck up that much more gas, which is one reason they aren't used much in vehicles of any type. I suspect a SC 350 would get gas mileage in the 30's at best.
Charlie, I think that if you do the math, you will find that turbocharged vehicles are equally as fuel hungry as those that are supercharged. Both are designed to pack a denser fuel/air charge into the cylinder which requires both more air AND fuel. The difference being how the charge is compressed.

Mike
 
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Does mileage matter to someone who would purchase a 200 horse power motorcycle? I don't think touring in on their agenda, of one of these riders. Riding down the expressway on one wheel is more likely to be the type of riding you would see done by such a motorcycle. Passing you over a double yellow line.
I wouldn't worry too much. I suspect the problem will be self-limiting.
 

Phil Tarman

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Charlie, IMHO, supercharging would be better because of the turbo-lag. If I understand correctly, it was the lag that doomed the turbo-charged bikes in the early 80s.
 

RedLdr1

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Charlie, IMHO, supercharging would be better because of the turbo-lag. If I understand correctly, it was the lag that doomed the turbo-charged bikes in the early 80s.
Lack of sophisticated on board electronics is what screwed up early turbo bikes..and cars. Go test drive a new Ford EcoBoost, there is no turbo lag...at all. My wife's 2014 Escape Titanium 2.0 EcoBoost is putting out 240 horsepower and 270 lb.-ft. of torque while averaging 23.5 MPG in Atlanta traffic. That is Two Horsepower per cubic inch...with zero lag or delay...the ease of doing burnouts proves that! :rolleyes1: That is much better than the old high performance engines which were doing good to see One HP per cubic inch...while virtually pouring fuel through them....:eek1:
 

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[...Superchargers make good power but also suck up that much more gas, which is one reason they aren't used much in vehicles of any type...]

I believe (?) that one of the high-output Mustangs is fitted with a supercharger and also GM may have one or more supercharged engines. One of the problems with turbo motorcycles in the mid-80s was finding a turbocharger sized appropriately for a 650-750 engine, plus the primitive electronics and other controls mentioned by another poster. Honda and Suzuki had to take what was there from turbo manufacturers.

At least from my viewpoint, turbocharged or supercharged engines are at the opposite pole from long life and reliability. Yes, they are vastly improved but most normally aspirated engines are still far better in regards to durability. Producing all that extra horsepower is not a free ride!
 
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Superchargers are used in some cars due to the lag. Yes, even in modern engines it is still there. It is just a design issue. The turbo can be sized to give power at the high end or at the low end. Or, you can have multiple smaller turbos (costly).

Turbos are more efficient. You can run numbers for that, either engineering energy balance equations or just look at fuel consumption for equal power outputs. It is no surprise that turbochargers are used in aircraft piston engines and not superchargers (except for a few cases, some of which used both supercharger and turbocharger). Diesel trucks are another good example. The only ones using superchargers are Detroit Diesels, which are also 2 stroke engines and are known for high power and high fuel consumption (those superchargers were also the basis for most of the superchargers used in drag racing). FYI, DD engines use superchargers because at lower engine speeds the turbo does not put out enough compression for the 2 stroke process to work well (they need a lot of scavenging). DD engines is used in a lot of the Army's vehicles, from the 3cyl engine in the Gamma Goat to the 6cyl in the M113 APC to 8V92T (supercharger and turbocharger) using in some of the trucks and self propelled artillery pieces.

Early turbos were not that great on cars or trucks or bikes because the technology was not there for really high speed turbos, ie, smaller and more responsive as well as better performance across a wider RPM range. They also had trouble with how to manage the heat of the bearings cooking the oil. Fuel management was another issue since they would have to run richer, burning even more fuel.

Much of this has been addressed, but, for a pure sport bike a supercharger would be required, simply because of throttle response. At those power levels even the tiniest bit of lag would make for a bad day. Folks who race bikes talk about how sensitive the throttles are now, eg, a tiny movement of the throttle means smoking the rear tire or keeping it on the track. Lag there would make that even worse.

For sport touring a turbocharger would be far and away a better choice if you really needed more power out of your smaller displacement motor. But, it is easier to just make a larger displacement engine and not have to worry about all the hot exhaust ducting, turbo placement, and keeping the bearings cool. Not even counting the cost difference.

Reliability? Turbos these days are more reliable than many other parts of the car. My Subie WRX now has 190k miles on it with no engine work at all. It has not been 'raced' since it passed the 150k mi point. And, it is not even stock. Some upgrades pushed the 2.2L engine to 320hp from the 275hp stock output. I am more worried about the transmission on the car than the engine (the early WRX's were known for eating transmissions).

So, would I like a turbo sport touring bike? As a mechanical engineer I'd love one. I drooled over the Honda 650 turbos when they were introduced. Would I buy one? No. Too much extra complexity and heat issues on a bike with very little payoff. I'd rather just get a bit bigger motor.

Would I like a supercharged bike? No. Car? Maybe. Eaton made some really neat little superchargers a few years ago that had some nice features. Like a cutoff and bypass for low throttle conditions. I think it was used on the Ford Thunderbirds from a few years ago. My BIL had one and finally got rid of it after it passed 200k miles. But, he also used to comment on the poor gas mileage at freeway speeds.

Sorry for the longish post. Just an area that I am really interested in.
 

Phil Tarman

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Charlie, you sure don't need to be sorry for your longish post (of course, I tend toward longish posts myself). I really appreciate getting to read what you wrote. It's obvious that you interest has led you to more knowledge of this subject than I have. Folks like you and DirtFlier are the reasons this is such a great Forum! Keep it up!
 
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They seem to be getting lots of power out of naturally aspirated engines. The new KTM RC390 puts out 44HP and weighs 324 Lbs. I am looking forward to a comparison with the other 300cc sportbikes.
 

Warren

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In January 2015 Yamaha will be releasing its new YZF-R3. Its a 321CC sport bike to compete with the Honda CBR300R and the Ninja 300.

Not many specs yet other than a weight of 368lbs and a price of $4990 and its a twin. HP is reported as 42 at 10,750 rpm
 
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What is really amazing is how far we have come. My little 250 Ninja (2007) is faster than my 60s vintage Triumph Bonneville was.
 
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My '70 Bonnie would pull redline in top gear (4th). If you crawl under the paint on the gas tank, that works out to a smidge over 110 mph. My resurrected (from an Air Force PDO yard) '84 GPz750 will cruise at 120 mph.
 

tawilke46

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Video from Jay Leno's Garage on the new Kawasaki H2 and H2R. Video shows the street version with 200+/- HP and the track version with 300HP.
Street version MSRP about $25,000. The H2R will run you $60,000.......and you must have a professional racer license to order one.
Pricey.



http://youtu.be/vAo0LWQFxdE
 
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