NT fuel system

Coyote Chris

Coyote Chris

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Aug 25, 2011
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Location
Spokane
Bike
10 Red NT 14 FJR, 17 XT
I was at the dealer yesterday talking prices and I asked about winterization of the fuel system. One of the things he mentioned was that you never want to run a fuel injected engine out of gas cause there are priming issues. That got me to thinking later that I have no idea how this bike's fuel system works.
1. Is there any sort of a fuel shut off valve/ petcock?
2. Cars have an auto fuel shut off valve that actuates in accidents so that the high pressure pump isnt spraying fuel eveywhere. Do bikes have some sort of tipover switch?
3. Where is the pump? In or outside of the tank? Are the connections to the injectors flexable or more like a fuel rail?
4. Is there a real fuel filter instead of a gravel strainer or do you guys install your own, or is that even possible?
Just curious.
Chris being dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century
 
1. Not that I can find in the manual.
2. Numerous bikes do, including the NT and Honda's ST's
3. In the tank. Looks like feeds are independent flex hoses.
4. This bike just has a strainer in the tank, as far as I can tell.
 
I have not disconnected the tank from the bike, since it has not been necessary. But my experience with past FI bikes has been that if you disconnect the hose from the bottom of the tank, it only spills enough fuel to wet your hand a little, not enough to make it to the floor. The fuel pump is inside the tank and it is a combination pump/filter/petcock, and it doesn't let any fuel out unless it's powered on. So you don't need a petcock like you needed with the old skool bikes that didn't have the pump inside the tank. Every bike I have ever had with a petcock, the petcock leaked, so frankly this new system is a lot less messy.

However... If you fail to get the fitting connected just perfectly, when you put the bike back together, then when you turn the power back on, the high pressure FI fuel pump can spew a huge amount of fuel in no time flat. So, make sure you reassemble correctly. :)
 
you have a "bank angle sensor" which is located behind the the "screen inner cowl" which is behind the windshield.
if the bike tips more than 60 degrees to the left or right the engine stop relay will kill the engine, and kill the fuel pump.
so if you go down the engine cuts off, and the fuel pump turns off.
 
I did remove my tank when I did the valve inspection and it was pretty straight forward. neat little clip connection for the pressure fuel line but put a plastic bag and rubber band on it so it does not dribble the gas left in the line all over.
 
This is my first MC with the fuel pump in the tank. I guess that all the cars have that same "feature" I am totally unclear on the reasoning behind this feature.

If you run out of fuel in a car or your bike, will the pump fail, perhaps overheat, or cause some other problem? I have always liked external electric pumps. Can anybody enlighten me on this one.
 
as long as there is gas in the tank the fuel pump stays cool, that could be one reason..............
 
I have no proof but I have heard it said by two radio car talk people that the fuel in the fuel tank cools the pump and you really shouldnt run the tank low all the time. I assume that it is cheeper to make this kind of system. I know my Honda CR-v has a real (non gravel stainer) fuel filter attached to the pump in the tank and my dealer says it is big enough to where they dont change the filter unless they change the pump. Most cars now have access hatch doors in the floors so that pulling the fuel pump in no big deal but some early cars and trucks, you either had to pull the tank or cut your own access hatch....
It looks like storing the NT here will certainly not involve using E10 as you dont want to run the fuel system dry. Forunately, there seems to be a place in North Idaho that sells real gas. Another option would be to siphon out most of the E10 and take some 100LL out of my friend's airplane and put it in the bike, then in the spring, siphon that out and refill with E10.
Thanks silverdevil about the bank angle sensor. I assume it resets once you pick up the bike....in some cars, if you are in a crash, you have to manully reset the shutoff valve.
 
The bank angle sensor resets by picking up the bike and then turning the key off and then back on again. Works the same way as the ST 1100/1300's do.
 
You don't really need to go into Idaho for clear gas, 87 & 91 are availible at Bettss save way, 3330 E. riverside, also 92 at city service valcon 18826 east appleway ave, this from the following web site: pure-gas.org
 
Coyote Chris said:
I have no proof but I have heard it said by two radio car talk people that the fuel in the fuel tank cools the pump and you really shouldnt run the tank low all the time. I assume that it is cheeper to make this kind of system. I know my Honda CR-v has a real (non gravel stainer) fuel filter attached to the pump in the tank and my dealer says it is big enough to where they dont change the filter unless they change the pump. Most cars now have access hatch doors in the floors so that pulling the fuel pump in no big deal but some early cars and trucks, you either had to pull the tank or cut your own access hatch....
It looks like storing the NT here will certainly not involve using E10 as you dont want to run the fuel system dry. Forunately, there seems to be a place in North Idaho that sells real gas. Another option would be to siphon out most of the E10 and take some 100LL out of my friend's airplane and put it in the bike, then in the spring, siphon that out and refill with E10.
Thanks silverdevil about the bank angle sensor. I assume it resets once you pick up the bike....in some cars, if you are in a crash, you have to manully reset the shutoff valve.
Click to expand...

100LL has a significant amount of TetraEthyl Lead in it, of course, and I think you should avoid that, as well. If you actually run the engine with this fuel in it you can compromise the O2 sensor, as well. Those of us with aircraft engines have to deal with lead-fouling of plugs, sticking valves, etc. over time. And these are engines designed to run with leaded fuel.

There are a few airports that have lead- and ethanol-free auto fuel for use by aircraft with mogas STC's (which do not permit ethanol-laced fuels). The closest one to you I can find is Pullman.

Me, I've never worried about it. For one thing, it's rare that my bikes sit more than a week without being ridden. But my standby generator and lawn tract sit there without being refueled for many months at a time and I have never had a problem with either one. Though I do put sta-bil in the gas I put in those vehicles.
 
Coyote Chris said:
Thanks silverdevil about the bank angle sensor. I assume it resets once you pick up the bike....in some cars, if you are in a crash, you have to manully reset the shutoff valve.
Click to expand...


It resets most of the time if you turn the key off and back on. Once I picked my bike up without turning the switch off and then it wouldn't start. Good safety feature if there are never in glitches in it. I can imagine that a failure in the bank angle sensor would leave you stranded and chapped.
 
Phil Tarman said:
It resets most of the time if you turn the key off and back on. Once I picked my bike up without turning the switch off and then it wouldn't start. Good safety feature if there are never in glitches in it. I can imagine that a failure in the bank angle sensor would leave you stranded and chapped.
Click to expand...

The early ST1100's had a recall because of a design defect that could cause the cutting out of the engine if banked over and hitting a bump. Mine was replaced by Honda for this reason. It was a standard safety recall as with others in the automotive industry. That said, I put something like 140,000 miles on my ST1100 and 2 ST1300's over 17 years and it never malfunctioned on any of them for me. It did get to exercise its intended purpose a few times and worked flawlessly each time.
 
BMW fuel pumps (made by Bosch, I think) are notoriously susceptible to the ravages of ethanol in fuel. Those of us in the BMW world are using Techron fuel system cleaner to help combat the problem. The MSDS says that it contains a light oil among other things, and we speculate that the oil coating the system parts protects them from corrosion. Seafoam is a similar product which seems to give good results. Since I have the stuff for my F800, I'm going to start dosing the NT with it.
 
[...But my standby generator and lawn tract sit there without being refueled for many months at a time and I have never had a problem with either one...] Those tend to have much more generous orifices for the low speed jets so a tiny bit of varnish build-up doesn't noticeably effect starting where a typical motorcycle with multiple carbs is quite the opposite.

Honda motorcycles with Fi systems seem to survive long periods in storage without any adverse effects. This is now my 3rd Ohio winter with the NT but I do start the engine about once a month and let it run until the temperature comes up to normal.
 
Normal procedure for any engine is to start them up and run them until warm at least once a month. It is preferred to put a load on them for at least part of that period.

But...I don't follow that advice. My lawn tractor sits for most of the year without moving. It starts right up every time (unless the battery is dead :) ). Same with the weedeater.

Anything with a carb gets gas treated with stabil or sea foam. Including the Guzzi.

FI systems really don't need gas treatment. The gas lines are not open to atmosphere so the gas won't evaporate like in a carb. So, varnish buildup is non-existent (unless maybe you let it sit for years).

The fuel pumps are in the tank for another reason, vapor lock. Fuel pumps used to be located in areas with little airflow. So they would get hot. The hot pump would vaporize the gas. When you tried to start it there was nothing but vapor and you'd get no fuel. Let it sit until cool and it would start right up. Some aircraft engines were notorious for this.

Earlier Guzzi systems had problems with E10 as well. Simple fix really. Just replace the fuel lines. Seems many of the European bikes were made with fuel line that was not compatible with ethanol and would degrade. Same was true of some of the fuel tanks.

The biggest problem with storage in winter is water in the fuel. The best ways to combat that are: fuel stabilizer (Stabil or Sea Foam), filling the tank completely (so no condensation), and not filling with E10 (alcohol "attracts" water).
 
charlie b said:
FI systems really don't need gas treatment. The gas lines are not open to atmosphere so the gas won't evaporate like in a carb. So, varnish buildup is non-existent (unless maybe you let it sit for years).

The fuel pumps are in the tank for another reason, vapor lock.
Click to expand...

Good thoughts on fuel questions. I was thinking(guessing) of reasons for putting the pump in the tank and all I came up with was a better suction source to prevent cavitation issues without having to use large fuel suction lines.
Vapor lock prevention makes sense. Fuel pumps mounted inside the tank are fine until they break, just like most things.

Brad
 
In an ideal world, one could store the bike with Ethanol free fuel--however, since we are stuck with the stuff, my sense is that we have a lot of options. There is no right way carved in stone. We do what we can with what we have, share on the forum--I always learn something--at least I did on this thread.

Our winter no riding season is usually 3 to 4 months. Fuel with E-10 can safely be stored for that period of time using Marine Stabil (Blue), Sea Foam, and K-100. I also add one ounce of Lucas Fuel treatment--which is also a Top Oil. That lubes the pump and cleans the injectors. I fill the tank to the top. Ethanol is hydrophilic, so if there is little to no air space, that will be minimized.

In the spring, I fill a 2Gal gas can, use a MANUAL transfer pump, and empty the motorcycle gas tank into my car. I put the two gallons of fresh fuel in and top off at the gas station. That has worked for years. I don't start the bike while it is stored because it is kept in a heated garage. I use synthetic oil which seems to coat things well. If the roads are clear, I might take a small ride--hasn't happened yet. I do leave my Battery Tender Jr plugged in all winter
 
Thanks guys....wow...cant believe I forgot about the O2 sensor and 100 LL. Must be getting old.....I think I will still be paranoid and use one of the two Ethanol free pumps in my area for winter storage along with Marine grade Stabil. Interesting techron story for BMWs. I am a believer in it for two reasons...
1. Chevron gasolines with Techron were some of the first gasolines to be named as a “Top Tier Detergent Gasoline”.[2] “Top Tier Detergent Gasoline(s)” are agreed to lead to better performance in engines by BMW, General Motors, Honda, Toyota, Volkswagen, and Audi.[2] Hyundai, Volvo and Mercedes-Benz have issued factory service bulletins advising the use of concentrated Chevron Techron in repair procedures for vehicles with certain mechanical problems.
2.since 1973 all the Big Three U.S. auto manufacturers have used Chevron gas when testing their vehicles to meet EPA durability standards. This type of cleaner gas even met the EPA standards 22 years before the 1995 EPA deposit control requirements came into effect. Since there were and are no Chevrons or Texacos (part of Chevron now and uses Techron as well) in Michigan, these companies made the effort to get Chevron gas from all the way down in Kentucky...now if that doesn't tell you something about their gas quality I don't what does!
 
All I know is that when I rode my Concours west and go to places where Chevron was available, I always bought it (it was usually the cheapest gas I could find, too). Within a couple of tanks, I'd always notice a 2-3mpg increase in mileage on my Concours. I've added Techron a couple of times to the Connies, but never to the NT.
 
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