Rick,
When I was in the Army, we never stole anything--we "Liberated" stuff.
When I was in the Army, we never stole anything--we "Liberated" stuff.
At least we did not have to wait forever to get our parts. It was call "Midnight Requisitioning" I remember pulling motor-pool guard in the early 70's to protect from that. Make sure the next unit did not take our vehicle parts. Guess we are headed there again with the DOD's cutbacks.
:frown:
And if Honda does not start selling the large lids in the US, we that have them, are going to have to start pulling GG (garage guard)on our NTs.
:
:frown: And if Honda does not start selling the large lids in the US, we that have them, are going to have to start pulling GG (garage guard)on our NTs.
:
Gentlemen,
Your comments about "Liberating", "stealing" and "Midnight Requisitioning" are truly embarrassing. I had a duty as a Non-Commissioned Officer to ensure all government property was properly secured. That meant that if it wasn't properly secured I took it and secured at my unit in accordance with my duties...
The trick was to wear a pair of shiny, new, starched shop coveralls, carry a clipboard and look really annoyed while properly "securing" the government property in question... I used to love joint exercises with Readiness Command (REDCOM) out of MacDill AFB as the AF Communications Group at Warner Robins AFB "The Third Herd" that supported REDCOM always failed to properly secure their property...
Your comments about "Liberating", "stealing" and "Midnight Requisitioning" are truly embarrassing. I had a duty as a Non-Commissioned Officer to ensure all government property was properly secured. That meant that if it wasn't properly secured I took it and secured at my unit in accordance with my duties...
The trick was to wear a pair of shiny, new, starched shop coveralls, carry a clipboard and look really annoyed while properly "securing" the government property in question... I used to love joint exercises with Readiness Command (REDCOM) out of MacDill AFB as the AF Communications Group at Warner Robins AFB "The Third Herd" that supported REDCOM always failed to properly secure their property...
I'm glad sombody was being a NCO
I picked up on the thread starter and concur that the survey was the ridiculous part of the experience. If marketing folks really wanted meaningful feedback on how the NT or Honda experience could be better, they'd spend a few hours on this forum instead of sending surveys out with predisposed and generalized questions. If the NT didn't sell like hotcakes in the first years it was probably because Yankees weren't ready for something as universally competent at two-wheel transport as the NT.
No, it is not a race bike. Nor is it a luxo-barge status symbol. But it commutes easily at 50 mpg with quick stop-n-shops in either direction, or both. It will then run coast-to-coast with a duffle strapped to the "hand-holds" of the back seat with just under 50 mpg at 75 mph+, or at 60 mpg and 60 mph on the back roads where you still find the real America.
If they kept it around a few years the all-around utility would win a following, and probably not just with the 50+ demographic. But they haven't figured that out.
Just like the Trans-Alp in the 90's, the NT is at the leading edge of the paradigm shift. If Honda had kept the Trans-Alp here, tweaked it to match the feedback from the riders who were in on that leading edge, then the ADV web site would probably be the Trans-Alp website today.
But, as I've found in my own engineering corporate experience, the guys at the top are prone to short-sighted decisions seeking the quick spike in bottom line that feeds their golden parachute for when they bail and move on to feed on the next greener pasture.
Some would say cynical. I say experience.
My feedback: US 2 across North Dakota would have been more pleasant at 85+ with a sixth gear. Necessary? No. Just more relaxed.
In addition, having the option to run from breakfast-stop to lunch-stop without a gas stop (another 2 gallons) with the wasted space under all the tupperware being put to use would be a useful option for some of us. Necessary? No. Just an option I'd like to have. And those are some things I'd pay a fair price for if it was designed in from the start for greatest cost-effectiveness.
Great bike. Best all-around for the riding I've done in the last 10 years or so.
The survey is missing the mark, and isn't helping anyone but the marketing guys in meeting their short-sighted metrics.
All FWIW and my two-cents into the pot.
No, it is not a race bike. Nor is it a luxo-barge status symbol. But it commutes easily at 50 mpg with quick stop-n-shops in either direction, or both. It will then run coast-to-coast with a duffle strapped to the "hand-holds" of the back seat with just under 50 mpg at 75 mph+, or at 60 mpg and 60 mph on the back roads where you still find the real America.
If they kept it around a few years the all-around utility would win a following, and probably not just with the 50+ demographic. But they haven't figured that out.
Just like the Trans-Alp in the 90's, the NT is at the leading edge of the paradigm shift. If Honda had kept the Trans-Alp here, tweaked it to match the feedback from the riders who were in on that leading edge, then the ADV web site would probably be the Trans-Alp website today.
But, as I've found in my own engineering corporate experience, the guys at the top are prone to short-sighted decisions seeking the quick spike in bottom line that feeds their golden parachute for when they bail and move on to feed on the next greener pasture.
Some would say cynical. I say experience.
My feedback: US 2 across North Dakota would have been more pleasant at 85+ with a sixth gear. Necessary? No. Just more relaxed.
In addition, having the option to run from breakfast-stop to lunch-stop without a gas stop (another 2 gallons) with the wasted space under all the tupperware being put to use would be a useful option for some of us. Necessary? No. Just an option I'd like to have. And those are some things I'd pay a fair price for if it was designed in from the start for greatest cost-effectiveness.
Great bike. Best all-around for the riding I've done in the last 10 years or so.
The survey is missing the mark, and isn't helping anyone but the marketing guys in meeting their short-sighted metrics.
All FWIW and my two-cents into the pot.
Interesting feedback. I never received the survey that I remember. Heck, that was two years ago, if received. Either way I didn't know the survey questions except the brief intro from the thread starter until you illuminated some of them.
As for sixth gear, I'm actually on the same platform as you. Once, maybe twice a year I'll manage a cross country, often on a business mission where I'm trying to get to Ohio or Tennessee in two or three days. From there I use the company travel money to launch a few thousand miles of more relaxed vacation riding. I've never needed more than the NT offers in almost 38Kmiles. Heck, I never needed more than the 650 Wee Strom offered in the 50Kmiles I put on them. But, hey, if someone asked I would say the Wee could use a shaft drive, though not as complaint but as viewpoint. Similarly if asked then I'd say overdrive on the NT would be nice. Not a buy-no buy criteria, but nice to have. Same with gas capacity. Even up the Dalton I wouldn't need more than the NT could carry, but it would be convenient to have two more gallons somewhere under the tupperware.
As mentioned in the earlier reply, the NT is THE BEST all around for the riding I've been doing. I sold several others and kept it for that reason. I didn't think I was complaining about the bike, or wasn't intending to anyway. I guess that's a mark that I missed.
From the info I had at the time, it sounded like the survey was missing the mark. I see where you're coming from though.
I'd like to attach a file (original is MS Word) of one of the letters I wrote to Honda in 2007 recommending that they bring the Deauville to the US as a discussion point. How do I do that?
As for sixth gear, I'm actually on the same platform as you. Once, maybe twice a year I'll manage a cross country, often on a business mission where I'm trying to get to Ohio or Tennessee in two or three days. From there I use the company travel money to launch a few thousand miles of more relaxed vacation riding. I've never needed more than the NT offers in almost 38Kmiles. Heck, I never needed more than the 650 Wee Strom offered in the 50Kmiles I put on them. But, hey, if someone asked I would say the Wee could use a shaft drive, though not as complaint but as viewpoint. Similarly if asked then I'd say overdrive on the NT would be nice. Not a buy-no buy criteria, but nice to have. Same with gas capacity. Even up the Dalton I wouldn't need more than the NT could carry, but it would be convenient to have two more gallons somewhere under the tupperware.
As mentioned in the earlier reply, the NT is THE BEST all around for the riding I've been doing. I sold several others and kept it for that reason. I didn't think I was complaining about the bike, or wasn't intending to anyway. I guess that's a mark that I missed.
From the info I had at the time, it sounded like the survey was missing the mark. I see where you're coming from though.
I'd like to attach a file (original is MS Word) of one of the letters I wrote to Honda in 2007 recommending that they bring the Deauville to the US as a discussion point. How do I do that?
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Nobby
Guest
I bought a time machine next week, and the 2030 NT750 is rubbish. Anti-grav on the parking hover mode is unreliable, holo-screen is prone to z-plane lag, and there's still no bloody 6th gear. It was a red one though, so boy was it fast! ;-)I hope to live long enough that I can purchase the 2030 hydrogen powered NT750
loonytuna
Guest
Thanks for loaning me your time machine!
I bought the 2035 NT, they worked out the anti-grav issue, added a constant drive system and computer that controls everything, including the gyro.
Boy I miss the old 2010 NT!
Hmmmmmmm
This forum gets more interesting all the time. Some of us really, really need a long ride to clear the winter cobwebs and rampant random thoughts the downtime generates. But I really like the results. Quite entertaining. It's like Saturday morning cartoons when I was a kid!
And, Falcon, thanks for the directions on uploads. I've used it for photographs a couple times, but wasn't sure if it was he same path. I'll probably post the letter when I decide if it should go here or in Phil's "sales" thread.
OK, I'll just copy/paste one of the two letters I sent to Honda in 2007. The second one was lost in a drive failure on my work laptop, but the gist was the same anyway.
The intent is to show what I think the survey is looking for. I thought at the time that the NT would be the most perfect bike available for the riding I do. It is exactly that - the most perfect bike available for the riding I do.
Long post? I'll try it:
Motorcycle Division
American Honda Motor Co. Inc.
PO Box 2200
Torrance, CA 90509-2200
Mail Stop: 100-4C-7B
Dear Honda Motorcycle Division,
I am an American engineer currently working a project in France. It is my
first trip to Europe since my children have grown, and therefore my first
trip here since I've become free to cover 30,000 to 40,000 miles (48.000 to
64.000 kilometers) per year on my motorcycles. I have noticed the larger
selection of motorcycle engine displacements available here in France than
are available to me in the USA. The obvious reason is that the price of
gasoline here in Europe is much greater than in America.
As oil and gasoline rapidly rise in price, and decline in availability, even
the American public will be making changes to their lifestyle, whether they
like it or not. The large displacement motorcycles will always sell, but as
prices for operating them rise, the decline in sales will be significant. I
will ask that you pay attention and look to the future.
But some quick background first.
I have been riding motorcycles since 1969. Back then, a 650 cc twin
cylinder motorcycle was a big bike. They traveled everywhere we needed them
to go, even coast to coast. Since then I've been on two wheels in every
state of the United States, including Hawaii, and in nearly every province
of Canada. I've owned Triumph, Honda, Yamaha, BMW, Benelli, and Harley
motorcycles, but I currently own a Harley Davidson Electra-Glide for riding
with my wife when she chooses not to ride her own. Most relevant though, I
also own and ride a Suzuki V-Strom 650 twin for everything else.
In the summer of 2007 I rode from my home in Washington State, north to
Alaska, east to New Brunswick Province and Maine, south to Key West Florida,
and then back west to home via Texas and Colorado. I rode the 650 Suzuki,
in spite of the chain maintenance required, because it gets 50 miles per
gallon instead of my Harley's 40 miles to the gallon. The 650 twin of the
V-Strom worked fine, including across the Great Plains at high rates of
speed, and through the Rocky Mountains at steep climbing angles. I never
needed or wanted more horsepower, not once in four weeks and nearly 20
thousand miles.
Only hype and the fantasy of wanna-be's who believe the hype keeps big
motors selling, and that won't work much longer.
The Gold Wing is a great motorcycle. The ST-1300 (Pan-European 1300 here in
Europe) is a great motorcycle. Honda offers the best technology and best
value on the market all over the world. But right now, you are not offering
the right motorcycles in the US to keep the market as prices for oil rise.
Reality in the form of gas prices will prevail. It is in this light that I
will ask that you pay attention and look to the future.
Why is the Deauville, renamed something like Trans-America, the Trans-State,
the ST-700, or whatever you like, not offered in the USA?
You have made the Gold Wing bigger, more cumbersome, more complex, and more
likely to develop electrical problems with each modification. You've also
made the nearly perfect ST-1100 into a bigger engine, higher hype machine
because that hype was marketable with a 1300 cc engine.
What I want, and what more and more Americans will come to want, is the
reliability of Honda engineering and manufacturing in a package that offers
everything we really need, and nothing we really don't, in a package that
will cover 100, 000 miles with minimum maintenance and with touring ability
that Honda is capable of providing.
As amplification, you should know that I've written to Kawasaki engineering.
They were very close to the perfect drive train and power plant with the now
defunct Vulcan 750. Hydraulic valve lash adjusters and shaft final drive
offered an easy 1000 miles per day with what could have been a very fuel
efficient, but adequately powerful, V-twin engine design. The reason I
never bought one is that configuring it for 7 gallons of gasoline capacity,
with the luggage capacity for cross country travel, and with the standard
peg positioning needed to stand on the pegs over rough mountain roads, was
not cost effective. I know because I looked into custom building a new
frame for that great power plant that would eliminate the ridiculous
"chopper wanna-be" frame and configuration . But, apparently, Kawasaki
never understood my point. They deleted the Vulcan 750 entirely and made
the already oversized Concourse into an even larger gas guzzler.
All the major Japanese manufacturers offer a single cylinder 650 cc
adventure tourer like the XL, the DR, and the KLR. What none of you seem to
understand is that though you know we need more than a single cylinder on
interstate runs across the Americas, we don't need car sized engines either.
That is more and more true as gas prices soar higher.
Surrendering to my plight in 2006 I bought a 650 V-Strom, knowing that I
would have to deal with chain maintenance every day or every thousand miles,
whichever came first. Thirty thousand miles later, not counting the miles
on my Harley, I really don't regret the purchase because I've only had to
replace the V-Strom chain and sprockets twice now. The consistent drawback
of chain drive is that I must take space in the saddle bags for the
lubricant and time along the road to spray the chain.
But now that I'm in Europe, I know that Honda has a better option. You have
the Deauville.
You are bringing the Varadero, again with an unnecessarily bloated engine
size, to Canada but not to the USA even though an equally equipped
competitor exists in the V-Strom 1000. Ok. Go for the market share on a
proven seller. But look further as well.
You have the Deauville, which is very close to perfect and has no similarly
equipped competitor, but you only offer it in Europe.
I am asking you to pay attention and look to the future. Please bring the
Deauville, or whatever name you choose to give it, to America.
L. E. Wissenbach
Address?.
So back to the forum members... did I miss the mark in telling them what I needed and why I needed the Deauville to come to the USA? If we all sent letters to Honda would they find a way to keep us on Honda's for the way we ride here in the USA, like an evolved NT instead of the commuter-focused NC? (BTW - nothing wrong with the NC, I just don't need a dedicated commuter right now)
The intent is to show what I think the survey is looking for. I thought at the time that the NT would be the most perfect bike available for the riding I do. It is exactly that - the most perfect bike available for the riding I do.
Long post? I'll try it:
Motorcycle Division
American Honda Motor Co. Inc.
PO Box 2200
Torrance, CA 90509-2200
Mail Stop: 100-4C-7B
Dear Honda Motorcycle Division,
I am an American engineer currently working a project in France. It is my
first trip to Europe since my children have grown, and therefore my first
trip here since I've become free to cover 30,000 to 40,000 miles (48.000 to
64.000 kilometers) per year on my motorcycles. I have noticed the larger
selection of motorcycle engine displacements available here in France than
are available to me in the USA. The obvious reason is that the price of
gasoline here in Europe is much greater than in America.
As oil and gasoline rapidly rise in price, and decline in availability, even
the American public will be making changes to their lifestyle, whether they
like it or not. The large displacement motorcycles will always sell, but as
prices for operating them rise, the decline in sales will be significant. I
will ask that you pay attention and look to the future.
But some quick background first.
I have been riding motorcycles since 1969. Back then, a 650 cc twin
cylinder motorcycle was a big bike. They traveled everywhere we needed them
to go, even coast to coast. Since then I've been on two wheels in every
state of the United States, including Hawaii, and in nearly every province
of Canada. I've owned Triumph, Honda, Yamaha, BMW, Benelli, and Harley
motorcycles, but I currently own a Harley Davidson Electra-Glide for riding
with my wife when she chooses not to ride her own. Most relevant though, I
also own and ride a Suzuki V-Strom 650 twin for everything else.
In the summer of 2007 I rode from my home in Washington State, north to
Alaska, east to New Brunswick Province and Maine, south to Key West Florida,
and then back west to home via Texas and Colorado. I rode the 650 Suzuki,
in spite of the chain maintenance required, because it gets 50 miles per
gallon instead of my Harley's 40 miles to the gallon. The 650 twin of the
V-Strom worked fine, including across the Great Plains at high rates of
speed, and through the Rocky Mountains at steep climbing angles. I never
needed or wanted more horsepower, not once in four weeks and nearly 20
thousand miles.
Only hype and the fantasy of wanna-be's who believe the hype keeps big
motors selling, and that won't work much longer.
The Gold Wing is a great motorcycle. The ST-1300 (Pan-European 1300 here in
Europe) is a great motorcycle. Honda offers the best technology and best
value on the market all over the world. But right now, you are not offering
the right motorcycles in the US to keep the market as prices for oil rise.
Reality in the form of gas prices will prevail. It is in this light that I
will ask that you pay attention and look to the future.
Why is the Deauville, renamed something like Trans-America, the Trans-State,
the ST-700, or whatever you like, not offered in the USA?
You have made the Gold Wing bigger, more cumbersome, more complex, and more
likely to develop electrical problems with each modification. You've also
made the nearly perfect ST-1100 into a bigger engine, higher hype machine
because that hype was marketable with a 1300 cc engine.
What I want, and what more and more Americans will come to want, is the
reliability of Honda engineering and manufacturing in a package that offers
everything we really need, and nothing we really don't, in a package that
will cover 100, 000 miles with minimum maintenance and with touring ability
that Honda is capable of providing.
As amplification, you should know that I've written to Kawasaki engineering.
They were very close to the perfect drive train and power plant with the now
defunct Vulcan 750. Hydraulic valve lash adjusters and shaft final drive
offered an easy 1000 miles per day with what could have been a very fuel
efficient, but adequately powerful, V-twin engine design. The reason I
never bought one is that configuring it for 7 gallons of gasoline capacity,
with the luggage capacity for cross country travel, and with the standard
peg positioning needed to stand on the pegs over rough mountain roads, was
not cost effective. I know because I looked into custom building a new
frame for that great power plant that would eliminate the ridiculous
"chopper wanna-be" frame and configuration . But, apparently, Kawasaki
never understood my point. They deleted the Vulcan 750 entirely and made
the already oversized Concourse into an even larger gas guzzler.
All the major Japanese manufacturers offer a single cylinder 650 cc
adventure tourer like the XL, the DR, and the KLR. What none of you seem to
understand is that though you know we need more than a single cylinder on
interstate runs across the Americas, we don't need car sized engines either.
That is more and more true as gas prices soar higher.
Surrendering to my plight in 2006 I bought a 650 V-Strom, knowing that I
would have to deal with chain maintenance every day or every thousand miles,
whichever came first. Thirty thousand miles later, not counting the miles
on my Harley, I really don't regret the purchase because I've only had to
replace the V-Strom chain and sprockets twice now. The consistent drawback
of chain drive is that I must take space in the saddle bags for the
lubricant and time along the road to spray the chain.
But now that I'm in Europe, I know that Honda has a better option. You have
the Deauville.
You are bringing the Varadero, again with an unnecessarily bloated engine
size, to Canada but not to the USA even though an equally equipped
competitor exists in the V-Strom 1000. Ok. Go for the market share on a
proven seller. But look further as well.
You have the Deauville, which is very close to perfect and has no similarly
equipped competitor, but you only offer it in Europe.
I am asking you to pay attention and look to the future. Please bring the
Deauville, or whatever name you choose to give it, to America.
L. E. Wissenbach
Address?.
So back to the forum members... did I miss the mark in telling them what I needed and why I needed the Deauville to come to the USA? If we all sent letters to Honda would they find a way to keep us on Honda's for the way we ride here in the USA, like an evolved NT instead of the commuter-focused NC? (BTW - nothing wrong with the NC, I just don't need a dedicated commuter right now)
Fourth and fifth are quite close. I'm in fourth most of the time. Fifth is reserved for over 55Mph.
Mellow
Admin
Great post Sam. I know we don't always see eye-to-eye on stuff I do on the site but I have to say I have great respect for what you do to provide for your family and wish you all the success.
Amen, Sam. We need more folks like you and your family in this world. That's a fact.
In the MCN road test the NT is turning 4580rpm at 65mph in 5th and the V-Strom is turning 5130rpm in 6th. So much for the NT needing an overdrive.
LOL! But if I was using the NT much in dirt and sand, I'd want a lower first gear. That would be the only advantage of a 6-speed transmission, in my opinion. You could have a lower 1st and close intervals up to 6th. But for a road bike, I think (as I've probably said ad nauseum) the NT's five gears are spaced perfectly to match its power and torque curves.
I think that's a bit of an "apples to oranges" comparison. The NT redlines at 8,500 RPM, the Wee redlines at 10,500 RPM. Fifth (Top) gear in the NT is 0.923, while Fifth in the Wee is 0.961 and then Sixth (Top) gear is a 0.841. That sixth gear adds another 8% drop for a more true total overdrive of 16%... And the power and torque bands are totally different between the bikes. Riding them back to back you can really feel the difference...and that can cost Honda sales.
I think (as I've probably said ad nauseum as well
) that the NT needs a sixth gear and better gear spacing... And add in about 10 more horsepower at least... And I'm going to keep telling Honda that in their "surveys"...Everyone's opinions, if based on their own experiences, will vary due to all the different factors such as their riding style, load, road, primary usage, etc... I like my NT, which is why it didn't get traded on the Wee, but I refuse to be a "fan boy" and claim it is perfect. It is an older design that could use some updating and improving in my opinion...
1fastbob
Guest
I think (as I've probably said ad nauseum as well
I agree 100%. A sixth gear would make the engine not so busy at 70 mph and probably give a small increase in fuel mileage. An extra 10 HP would also be great for this 500lb + bike. So far I like mine fine, but it's not perfect (in my opinion of course).