Questions for you military types (Jungle Jim)

[Coyote Chris]

The sad circumstances over the container ship raming the bridge can not be reversed quickly. It now looks like they can open a small channel for small ships pretty quickly.
I apprciate being careful and working slowly and methodically but I woiuldnt.
I think the US Army Corps of Engineers/US Military have much faster means of opening the main channel.
Forget the cutting torches.
Blow the SOB into small pieces while using 8 tugs to pull back on the ship in the way too shallow channel. While pulling off whats left of the bridge off the ship. Then all you have left if a dredge/grappel hook operation to open the port....looking at YOutube vids, I think this can be done in a week.

 

[junglejim]

I know zero details but I’ll hazard a guess that there will be/is gridlock over “who’s in charge/ control / or oversees what”. By the time anyone gets approval from everyone to do anything it will take longer than predicted. And then there will be the inevitable fight over the costs of the clearing and rebuilding which will go no much longer.

On the other hand if the executive branch of our government could work with the legislative branch to expedite things could go better. I’m not optimistic. Hoping I’m wrong.

 

[ARKNT]

It will be a long project. I went out for breakfast the morning after the collapse. I was talking to a truck driver about the bridge. He said it would be rebuilt in about 3 months. I didn't go into details with him but told him it would be much longer. He made it sound like snapping together legos or something.
With big resources it will get done but will be quite a project. hope it goes smooth.

Arknt

 

[RedLdr1]

I read that Baltimore is number 17 on the list of busiest US ports. There is no predicted economic impact to the overall US economy just the local Baltimore / Maryland economy. Send the freight thru Savannah / Charleston / Jacksonville / Miami for now and redo Baltimore with a deeper wider channel and a higher bridge with bumpers.

I don't think you'll see any underwater, or even above water, demolition as there is a natural gas pipeline in that area.

 

[Coyote Chris]

I know zero details but I’ll hazard a guess that there will be/is gridlock over “who’s in charge/ control / or oversees what”. By the time anyone gets approval from everyone to do anything it will take longer than predicted. And then there will be the inevitable fight over the costs of the clearing and rebuilding which will go no much longer.

On the other hand if the executive branch of our government could work with the legislative branch to expedite things could go better. I’m not optimistic. Hoping I’m wrong.

You may be right. My take is that the refusal to install the protective barriers that would have saved the bridge are gonna come back and bite them. Just today, a barge hit another bridge. I dont know how the propolsion works on a container ship...on a cruise ship, there are about 4 deisil engines that power generators that make the electricity for the prop motors. The power outage and black engine smoke tell me someone screwed up big time....

 

[Coyote Chris]

I read that Baltimore is number 17 on the list of busiest US ports. There is no predicted economic impact to the overall US economy just the local Baltimore / Maryland economy. Send the freight thru Savannah / Charleston / Jacksonville / Miami for now and redo Baltimore with a deeper wider channel and a higher bridge with bumpers.

I don't think you'll see any underwater, or even above water, demolition as there is a natural gas pipeline in that area.

I am sure you are correct...they are using cutting torches and its gonna take awhile. You can see how narrow the channel is by the bow of the ship being forced into the mud...it sure isnt deep there. In Panama, with the drought, you can see container ships off loading containers, the containers being rail roaded to the other end, and re loaded. You can see the new lower water level of Lake Gatun when going through the canal.

 

[Coyote Chris]

It will be a long project. I went out for breakfast the morning after the collapse. I was talking to a truck driver about the bridge. He said it would be rebuilt in about 3 months. I didn't go into details with him but told him it would be much longer. He made it sound like snapping together legos or something.
With big resources it will get done but will be quite a project. hope it goes smooth.

Arknt

3 months! If the piling is salvagable, maybe 2-3 years with max effort. The orignial took 5.

 

[DirtFlier]

That bridge was completed in 1977 and modern methods and materials have changed a lot in 47 years so I can't believe a new one will take 5 years to erect. The biggest problem for now is the legislative logjam!

 

[RedLdr1]

When the I-85 bridge was destroyed (March 2017) by a homeless psycho setting a fire the "experts" said it would take at least a year to fix. Well Georgia DOT and the Feds got innovative and it took 7 weeks. If everyone works together, and is willing to "play nice with others", repairs can be expedited. Read about it Here. A smaller scale then the Baltimore mess but things don't have to drag out forever.

I see the company that owns the Dali has filed to severely limit their financial liability using a 1851 law still on the books.

 

[mikesim]

I wouldn't expect anything to happen quickly. I don't think the Feds will turn the Army Corps of Engineers loose to git 'er done. By the time all the environmental impact statements are completed and every Federal agency to sign off, it will take years. The legal wrangling to determine who is going to pay for it will take years by its

When the I-85 bridge was destroyed (March 2017) by a homeless psycho setting a fire the "experts" said it would take at least a year to fix. Well Georgia DOT and the Feds got innovative and it took 7 weeks. If everyone works together, and is willing to "play nice with others", repairs can be expedited. Read about it Here. A smaller scale then the Baltimore mess but things don't have to drag out forever.

I see the company that owns the Dali has filed to severely limit their financial liability using a 1851 law still on the books.

They will be trying to exercise "Force Majeure" to avoid liability for the cost of the bridge replacement. Force Majeure has long been a recognized condition in International Law and is in place in most major contracts. Force Majeure simply means an "overwhelming force" much akin to an Act of God as in an event for which no one can be held accountable. Courts have held that for Force Majeure to be applied to an event, that event must be unforseeable, external to the parties involved and unavoidable. Since it appears that the ship had previous documented electrical issues that were known to the captain and crew, that would negate, it seems to me, any application of Force Majeure. The courts may see it differently. Either way, it will take a long time to rebuild and even longer to assess responsibility.

Mike

 

[junglejim]

It only took about a year to replace the I 35 bridge in Minneapolis when it collapsed in 2007. Minnesota DOT jumped on it right away and got er done. No lawyering. No blaming someone else. Just FIX THE BRIDGE.

 

[junglejim]

However Minnesota DOT has been rebuilding the exit ramps on the Blotnik bridge in Duluth for over 2 years now and still not done. Worse yet construction is shut now down because someone found some bones thought to be from an old Native American burial ground.

The same issue shut down Highway 23 reconstruction in Duluth for several years. They completed the highway but they are still digging for bones there. One never knows what’s around the next corner.

 

[mikesim]

We've had several Corps of Engineers projects halted due to the presence of the Indiana bat. A local municipality purchased several hundred acres out of town then annexed it so that they could build an industrial park. The MO DNR said OK but the EPA said no dice, there are Indiana bats living there. They finally settled when the city agreed to purchase some adjacent acreage and create bat habitat. If they find some endangered oysters near the bridge, they are screwed.

Mike

 

[Frosty]

Are they using the plans from 1970's or is there a new design process to be navigated?

 

[Coyote Chris]

It only took about a year to replace the I 35 bridge in Minneapolis when it collapsed in 2007. Minnesota DOT jumped on it right away and got er done. No lawyering. No blaming someone else. Just FIX THE BRIDGE.

What is NEVER taught in public education is what can be done without the internet...without computers...if a country really tries...From Jan 1942 to Jan 1944, the US went from Pearl Harbor to Buick Making complex aircraft engines, Ford building the largest factory in the world and making B24 bombers, one an hour...by April 2nd, 1942 , the USS Hornet was passing under the San Fransisco bridge, headed for Tokyo. A mission was planned, pilots trained, aircraft modified, a task forcee assembled...while Pearl Harbor was being rebuilt.....the list of minor miracles is endless.

 

[Coyote Chris]

I know zero details but I’ll hazard a guess that there will be/is gridlock over “who’s in charge/ control / or oversees what”.
the other hand if the executive branch of our government could work with the legislative branch to expedite things could go better. I’m not optimistic. Hoping I’m wrong.

I hate being right all the time...

 

[DirtFlier]

"...by April 2nd, 1942 , the USS Hornet was passing under the San Fransisco bridge, headed for Tokyo. A mission was planned, pilots trained, aircraft modified, a task forcee assembled...while Pearl Harbor was being rebuilt..

I'm still amazed that the Doolittle Raiders were able to get those B-25s off the deck of the USS Hornet. This was eons before launch catapults and the available runway was extremely short. The flight deck length was OK for a single engine fighter but for a twin engine bomber? All the films I've seen of the B-25s departing show them dropping once clear of the flight deck and who knows how close they got to the water before they attained enough speed to climb a little!

 

[mikesim]

"...by April 2nd, 1942 , the USS Hornet was passing under the San Fransisco bridge, headed for Tokyo. A mission was planned, pilots trained, aircraft modified, a task forcee assembled...while Pearl Harbor was being rebuilt..

I'm still amazed that the Doolittle Raiders were able to get those B-25s off the deck of the USS Hornet. This was eons before launch catapults and the available runway was extremely short. The flight deck length was OK for a single engine fighter but for a twin engine bomber? All the films I've seen of the B-25s departing show them dropping once clear of the flight deck and who knows how close they got to the water before they attained enough speed to climb a little!

Several years ago, I read a great book (the title now escapes me) about the Doolittle Raid and the preparations for it. The Army Air Corps worked with the engineers from North American to strip every single ounce of unneeded weight from the aircraft and when that wasn't enough, they went in and lightened the aircraft even more. They were given just enough avgas to complete the mission and land somewhere in China. The air crews knew that it was very likely that they would never come back from the mission. It was a bold statement of American ingenuity and bravery.

Mike

 

[DirtFlier]

I recall seeing films of the Raiders practicing takeoffs on an airport runway marked with the flight deck dimensions of the USS Hornet. Of course, practicing from an airport is quite different than from an aircraft carrier pitching up/down in the Pacific Ocean! On the plus side, they could turn the carrier into the wind and get to up to maximum speed (15-17 mph) to help lift-off.

 

[Chucksklrst]

Just think the first B-25 to take off had a lot less flight deck length to use than the last B-25.