Strong feelings on Tubeless wire wheels out there?

[Coyote Chris]

I have noted that many ADV/touring bike makers are now using wire wheels made specifically for Tubeless tire use. Bless them. Given all things like size being equal, I know that WWs are lighter. Are there any downsides? Easier to damage during shop tire changes? Getting bent more easily? Spokes loosening up?
Chris who doesnt ride off road....

 

[junglejim]

No experience with tubeless tires on motorcycles (I'm too old for that). But I have used tubelss tires on my mountain bike. Weight is a much bigger factor on a bicycle. Bicycle rims are alloy (except for Walmart bikes) so the rim weight is not a factor. The tubeless tires are the way to go for riding. Better accelleration, less rolling resistance, and better grip. I've had less flats with tubeless tires than my old tube tires. They are lighter. In an emergency I can just stick a tube in a flatted tubeless to get home (I carry one in my tool kit). I like them. They require a special rim tape to prevent leakage through the spoke nipples and a special valve stem.

The only down side is working on them when changing tires and associated expense. They have an ounce or two of liquid latex inside to seal up any small leaks that occur. You don't notice it when riding. They tend to dry out so it is wise to re-mount and add new latex every few months (I've gone a year) depending on how frequently they are used and temperature, etc. Cleaning the bead and rim seat is critical. Messy job. I expect that the motorcycle tires use the same stuff or are at least filled with nitorgen.

Like with everything else the racers are the first ones to figure things out. If they are using tubeless tires then there is an advantage. The steel rims have a big strength advantage over alloy rims. But you have to hit something really really really HARD to ruin a rim. I don't think there are many riders in this group who ride like that any more. I run tubeless tires on my mountain bike (2.35"X29"tires) and tube type in my fat bike (4"X26" tires).

 

[Coyote Chris]

No experience with tubeless tires on motorcycles (I'm too old for that). But I have used tubelss tires on my mountain bike. Weight is a much bigger factor on a bicycle. Bicycle rims are alloy (except for Walmart bikes) so the rim weight is not a factor. The tubeless tires are the way to go for riding. Better accelleration, less rolling resistance, and better grip. I've had less flats with tubeless tires than my old tube tires. They are lighter. In an emergency I can just stick a tube in a flatted tubeless to get home (I carry one in my tool kit). I like them. They require a special rim tape to prevent leakage through the spoke nipples and a special valve stem.

The only down side is working on them when changing tires and associated expense. They have an ounce or two of liquid latex inside to seal up any small leaks that occur. You don't notice it when riding. They tend to dry out so it is wise to re-mount and add new latex every few months (I've gone a year) depending on how frequently they are used and temperature, etc. Cleaning the bead and rim seat is critical. Messy job. I expect that the motorcycle tires use the same stuff or are at least filled with nitorgen.

Like with everything else the racers are the first ones to figure things out. If they are using tubeless tires then there is an advantage. The steel rims have a big strength advantage over alloy rims. But you have to hit something really really really HARD to ruin a rim. I don't think there are many riders in this group who ride like that any more. I run tubeless tires on my mountain bike (2.35"X29"tires) and tube type in my fat bike (4"X26" tires).

I am sorry, my friend. I did not make myself clear....I will try again.

Many ADV/touring motorcycles equipped with wire wheels like the Suzuki 2017 650 XT, the Yamaha Super Ten and many BMWs have specially designed wire wheels where the spokes are fastened to the wheel outside of the tire volume area, thus allowing for the use of true tubeless tires with no intertube necessary. A great safety feature. This allows the manufacture to install lighter wheels and decrease weight, especially unsprung weight...good for off roading.

My question is, are there other factors that may be a downside to using wire wheels on a street bike of this type? Greater chance of damage in a pothole? Bending of spokes? Wheel spokes getting out of "tune?" Back in the 60s, we didnt have much choice. We used wire wheels with tube tires and tubes that could blow and the wheels themselves got messed up if you hit a curb, etc. Then we hit the 1980s and the world changed for street bikes. Any opinions?

 

[ARKNT]

Not familiar with new tubeless spoked wheels. If you were doing serious off road and wanting to run very low air pressures, you may need a rim lock of some sort to keep the bead from slipping on the rim. These new wheels may already have that covered.

I sure like the tubeless tire better when mounting, and a flat is much easier to repair. I have KLX250 with tubes. Hope I don't get a flat.

Brad

 

[DirtFlier]

I don't know if there's a real advantage in having that combination, other than being able to more easily repair a flat at trailside. Spoke wheels/w tube tires could take one heck of a wallop and suffer a big dent without losing air because it doesn't rely on the rim's sealing edge but that same dent could cause a leak with a tubeless tire.

To me it was done to make the huge ADV bikes look more like dirt bikes while still being capable of 100+ mph on the blacktop.

 

[Coyote Chris]

Not familiar with new tubeless spoked wheels. If you were doing serious off road and wanting to run very low air pressures, you may need a rim lock of some sort to keep the bead from slipping on the rim. These new wheels may already have that covered.

I sure like the tubeless tire better when mounting, and a flat is much easier to repair. I have KLX250 with tubes. Hope I don't get a flat.

Brad

Brad, I think Dirtflier may be right. These are not the wire wheels of the 1960s or even modern day off road bikes. They are closer to cast wheels with the cast spokes cut off and wire ones installed. I think in reality only motorcycle rag writers take these adv/touring bikes out for serious off roading,but I do know exceptions. At any rate, the important thing for me is that they DO take modern tubeless tires that only rarely suddenly deflate while underway, and I can fix with a plug many times when the nails get knarley. None of these combos of tubless tires and wire wheels should be run with low pressures. They are not make for that....

 

[ARKNT]

If you did have problems with a wheel/spokes it might be more difficult to find someone experienced in fixing it and truing it up today. A shop that does a lot of off road (moto-cross) bikes may do OK but a street bike capable of 100 MPH needs to be pretty round and true.

That is not likely to be much of a problem anyway, except in a crash, and then you've got bigger issues.
I have had blowouts (way back in time) on tube type tires and it was scary. I still remember a rear tire blowout with a passenger on the back. We made it but I don't want to repeat. Tubeless tires have a much better safety factor that I appreciate (also tires today are much better than yesteryear). Much more likely to be a slow leak than a blowout.

Brad

 

[junglejim]

If you did have problems with a wheel/spokes it might be more difficult to find someone experienced in fixing it and truing it up today. A shop that does a lot of off road (moto-cross) bikes may do OK but a street bike capable of 100 MPH needs to be pretty round and true.

For sure!!!!
Spoked motorlcycle wheels are pretty robust compared to bicycle wheels. But the same physics apply to both. The wheels need to be "true". That is they need to be round (radially centered) and not egg shaped. They need to run true and not wobble. Both "round" and true" are adjusted by the spoke tension. Spoke tension needs to be the same all around the wheel or they will go out of ture. Once the tension and true are lost you'll be playing "catch up" mainntence for the rest of the wheel life.

Some rear wheels are "dished". That is to say the hub is not centered laterally in the rim, but is off-set to one side to accomodate sprocket and brake parts. That means the right side spokes are a different lenght and tension that the left side spokes. Wheel building is both a science and art. And Brad is correct - it is hard to find a good wheel builder these days. In the factory they are built by machines, but after that it takes a good wheel builder to make good repairs.

 

[ARKNT]

I once laced up a new rim on a bicycle wheel. Quite an experience for me. Some of you old bicycle hands might not think too much about it but it is not something everybody can do well.
I don't know how long that bicycle wheel took me, but I would hate to pay mech time for how long it took me.

Brad

 

[Thumpn]

I am not sure of the physics involved - but spoked wheels are reported to be more durable to the kind of abuse that "off road" riding and "dirt racing" impose on the wheel. It is not just about weight - but durability.

The "go to" place for spoked wheel parts and the workers to put them together is Buchanan Spoke and Rim in California.

 

[Phil Tarman]

I've built several bicycle wheels and they've always stayed true and round with only an occasional tweak needed. I wouldn't try to build a motorcycle wheel.

 

[DirtFlier]

[...I've built several bicycle wheels and they've always stayed true and round...I wouldn't try to build a motorcycle wheel...Phil]

I've done both so have a bit of 1st hand experience. The bicycle rim, even a wide one for a mountain bike, is narrow when compared to its outside diameter and as such, it can be very sensitive to overtightening one or more spokes on one side. And if fitted with the typical "clincher type" brakes, the edges of the outside diameter on a bicycle rim need to be true. Conversely the motorcycle rim is wider and has a much smaller outside diameter so it's a lot more forgiving, plus its stiffness helps.

My latest bicycle, a Cannondale 29er, has mechanical disc brakes and I love them! The bike is great but the owner's manual stinks - nearly every page has some sort of product liability warning about doing this or not doing that so it lacks any real info on adjustments!

 

[Coyote Chris]

There is a guy in CDA Idaho that is said to be an artist at lacing wheels....maybe its becoming a lost art....I would love to see a vid of someone at a factory doing it....

 

[karl]

https://youtu.be/M6sj44TtWUU

 

[Warren]

There is a guy in CDA Idaho that is said to be an artist at lacing wheels....maybe its becoming a lost art....I would love to see a vid of someone at a factory doing it....

Most wheel building and truing done at the factory is by machines.

 

[Dee G]

My 98 Guzzi EV has tubeless spoke wheels. The 03 Guzzi EV has them as well as my 04 R1200C. Tire changes are easy, no muss, no fuss. No leaks, no loose spokes.

 

[Phil Tarman]

I always thought that the reason spoked wheels were preferable on off-road bikes was that they were less likely to crack the rim with a big hit.

 

[DirtFlier]

It might be mostly historical since all bikes, on-road and off-road, had spoked wheels for a long time so there just wasn't another choice.

In the 70s (?) one of the makers, perhaps Rokon, had an off-road bike with wheels made of some kind of non-metallic material fitted with normal, tube-type, of-road tires. The idea was that a big hit would make the rim flex without making a permanent dent or crack, such as occurs with metal rims/wheels. It was mostly ignored by the off-road community.