Suspension Sag

SeattleJim

Guest
Has anyone (Elzilla?!) gone through the trouble of precisely setting the static sag of their NT700 suspension? (Something like setting it to 25-30% of suspension travel -- I'm still learning.)

I've never paid much attention to discussions of suspension sag believing it's only important to sport and motocross bikes. In the past I've adjusted the preload to what felt good and forgot about it. The NT700 manual's recommendation for me (170lbs) is too, too harsh so I backed it way off.

Is it worth adjusting sag on a bike like the NT? To be kind it doesn't have the best suspension system and I know I'd have to use spacers in the front if I wanted to adjust the forks. But it might be interesting to see where it is.
 

elizilla

Guest
It's good to adjust sag but it's hard to do alone. I haven't done it lately.
 

oldyaler

Guest
Adjusting sag on ANY motorcycle is worth the time and effort. Play around with the preload to find a setting that gives you a smooth controlled ride. Then if you carry a passenger you can go up 1 or 2(or more) clicks to compensate for the extra weight.
 

karl

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Is the adjustment on our bikes actually changing ride height. Moving the spring seat. or is it firming up the compression stroke valving of the shock?
 

oldyaler

Guest
Is the adjustment on our bikes actually changing ride height. Moving the spring seat. or is it firming up the compression stroke valving of the shock?
Actually, increasing preload makes the coil spring act like a stiffer spring. I'm not sure if there would be a difference in seat height.
 

karl

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Actually, increasing preload makes the coil spring act like a stiffer spring. I'm not sure if there would be a difference in seat height.
Unless it is moving the seat with oil it would seem so. It does change the way it behaves.
 

DirtFlier

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Increasing preload will cause the seat to rise but only if the previous setting was so soft that the bike had noticeable sag.
 

CoolNT

Guest
There is definitely sag on softer preload settings. I haven't noticed sag on stiffer setting. Height is unchanged with different settings.
 
OP
OP

SeattleJim

Guest
The sag is the difference between 1) the suspension at the very top with no load and 2)where it sits with you sitting on it. My understanding is that when the bike is set up correctly that the sag should be 25-30% of the suspension travel. The NT700V rear suspension travel is listed as 4.8" so 25% would be 1.2 inches. It looks like the bike should sink 1.2 inches when you sit on it. If that seat doesn't sink a little bit when you sit on it you definitely have too much preload. (It takes a helper to measure the seat height unloaded and then again with you sitting on it.)

I've never set sag this critically before and was wondering if anyone had on a bike like the NT700. Serious sport and dirt bike riders always do it. I don't think it's critical on this bike but I'm curious about it. I now have a 250 dual sport that I definitely will set up correctly.
 

oldyaler

Guest
The sag is the difference between 1) the suspension at the very top with no load and 2)where it sits with you sitting on it. My understanding is that when the bike is set up correctly that the sag should be 25-30% of the suspension travel. The NT700V rear suspension travel is listed as 4.8" so 25% would be 1.2 inches. It looks like the bike should sink 1.2 inches when you sit on it. If that seat doesn't sink a little bit when you sit on it you definitely have too much preload. (It takes a helper to measure the seat height unloaded and then again with you sitting on it.)

I've never set sag this critically before and was wondering if anyone had on a bike like the NT700. Serious sport and dirt bike riders always do it. I don't think it's critical on this bike but I'm curious about it. I now have a 250 dual sport that I definitely will set up correctly.
Go to http://www.racetech.com/. Look in the FAQ section. there's some info about static sag that might give you more insight.
 

karl

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Thanks Warren wondered where it had gone off to. Most sport bikes have externally adjustable suspension front and rear. our bikes have one (1) suspension adjustment you can make without taking things apart and modifying them. The one we do have available does make a big difference on how the bike feels. If you have a good memory like mine that is just a bit short keep track of the turns on the adjuster in a notebook. Dagnbbit where is that tackle box.
 

spacetiger

Guest
Some [front] suspension thoughts

I read through this thread and thought the original poster was talking to the front suspension, most comments were to the rear.

My 3 cents addressing the front suspension. I admit up front I am a novice in the suspension area, but I am trying to learn to appreciate the finer points of riding a bike, so I have spent much time researching the internet (its free and has lots of good information) and pursuing a better suspension for the PC.

1. I think for many riders, a more sophisticated suspension is wasted. Their riding style is such that they really don't require the adjustability. There is nothing wrong with this. All the sport bikes, especially the very competitive 600cc class have the latest suspension tunability out there; more suspension control = faster lap speeds (for any machine). The majority of NT riders (and PC riders) are not out there trying to get the best lap time, so there is no need for more expense in a better suspension. Honda thought so too.

2. What can you do? I think you have 3 options; stay stock, some modifications, or major modifications.
- stay stock: setting the preload (changing spacer length), changing to different fork oil wt, and or possibly sliding up the forks a tad up in the triple tree to increase turn response (I would not suggest the last one unless you know what you are doing, you could shorten it too much and create an instability issue at speed)
- slight modification: The items above + changing spring to better match your riding weight/riding style, possibly adding a gold valve setup, and/or adding a fork brace. I think as you play around with the suspension, you'll notice these changes and appreciate how they can make the bike a better performer under certain riding conditions. If you do not ride very aggressive at all, you might only appreciate these changes in emergency situations, and then you would be happy you made them if they allowed to to maintain control of the bike.
- major modifications: I am thinking of component swapping at this point. The NT has 41mm stanchions, so there are lots of other Honda bikes that you can swap your forks with to get different levels of increased precision control (mostly preload and rebound damping control. If you use the ST1100 forks, you can get compression damping + anti-dive valve), but with these changes come brake mods too. Personally, I think the NT has very good brakes. A fork swap could be made and still retain the NT brakes. Use bike bandit to help cross reference to NT brake components to find a suitable donor (CBR F2 or F3, VFR750/800, ST1100 are possible candidates).

3. What I'd do. Get a couple of zip ties (1 black and 1 white) and add one to each fork leg, white on on left leg and black one on right leg. Zip them up tight, then push them down to the dust seal. On the left leg, add some electrical tape around the stanchion (tube) a tad above the max travel of the front suspension. So, if you have 5" of travel, make it 5 1/16" above the dust seal.. Now, get on the bike and have someone steady the bike while you just sit on it in the riding position (hands on handlebars). Then get off without bouncing the bike. Note how far up the zip ties go up the stanchions (tube). If its close to 25% of your suspension travel, you have no need to mess with the preload. If it is more or less than 10%, don't mess with anything, just ride the bike for a month or so. Every time you get off, note where the zip ties are. You should never move the one one the left leg (white one). It represents the maximum you have compressed the fork. On the right fork, you should always reset it to the dust seal, but make a mental note how far it was moved - relative to the left leg (max compression). After a month, you should have enough mental data to know if you should do anything. If you ride sedately, you may not ever see anything close to using the complete suspension travel. If however, you see you have quickly gotten to the max several times, then you should do something. If you are an aggressive rider, your data might tell you you do not have much margin. One day, your aggressive riding style will require more control for a given situation. If the bike does not have it, you could loose control and go down, or worse. Or, if you are a bit heavy, you may ride sedately, but be using much of your suspension. Again, you are riding with little margin. If you have ever clamped the front brakes really hard and the nose compresses, you have just experienced one of the extreme loads you can put on a suspension without riding aggressive. Go check your zip ties, they will be equal, very far up the tube. I don't think when you are under these conditions you would want to steer to avoid something, but you might need too. Would you have enough control?

Anyways, here is a pic of the zip tie. You can use a white one on the left leg to go with the black tape (my tape had come off a while back) and a black zip tie on the right leg...

If enough of you riders do this and you ride together sometimes, go look at the zip ties on other bikes and pay attention to the weight of the rider. Seek out the ones like you (in weight) to talk about your zip ties sharing information about what works and what doesn't. Taking advise from a more aggressive rider who may weight 225 vs you at 170 is going to be very different...

Jerry
 

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