Never having owned or ridden a motorcycle which required periodic valve adjustments, what are the indications that it is needed> Is this strictly on a mileage basis, or are there some symptoms to listen for or feel?
Valve Adjustment
- Thread starter Rotorhead
- Start date
Mileage is the indicator, Don. I think that the 600-mile check is probably the most critical. That way you catch any production errors. Those are unlikely but possible. If your mechanic is good and gets everything put back together right, then you've got a pretty good baseline.
Screw and locknut adjustors like the NT has are pretty stable. But things wear. Slowly (usually), but they wear. I think that has valve train components wear, the valves usually get tighter and clearances get smaller until they're non-existent. At that point, you've got problems.
From what our friends on the other side of the Pond say, NT/Deauvilles go a long, long time without needing an adjustment.
During the 160,000 miles I put on Concours, I got pretty confident about going 10,000 miles between valve adjustment / checks. I'd usually find all 16 valves in-spec, with one or two close to one end or the other of the range. I'd try to get them all to the loose end of the spec.
I don't know if there's an indicaton when your valves are too loose, but if they're too tight, things get very quiet and some people think, "Man, I'm so lucky...I've got such a quiet engine," and then things get ugly.
Katherine can probably be more precise and accurate about this sort of stuff. I haven't done a valve check on the NT and she has. I did them on the two Concours regularly but am a bit intimidated by the NT. It makes me appreciate the plain old screw/nut fairing fasteners of the Connie. The nifty interlocking tabs of the NT fairing are great once you learn which way to slide things.
Screw and locknut adjustors like the NT has are pretty stable. But things wear. Slowly (usually), but they wear. I think that has valve train components wear, the valves usually get tighter and clearances get smaller until they're non-existent. At that point, you've got problems.
From what our friends on the other side of the Pond say, NT/Deauvilles go a long, long time without needing an adjustment.
During the 160,000 miles I put on Concours, I got pretty confident about going 10,000 miles between valve adjustment / checks. I'd usually find all 16 valves in-spec, with one or two close to one end or the other of the range. I'd try to get them all to the loose end of the spec.
I don't know if there's an indicaton when your valves are too loose, but if they're too tight, things get very quiet and some people think, "Man, I'm so lucky...I've got such a quiet engine," and then things get ugly.
Katherine can probably be more precise and accurate about this sort of stuff. I haven't done a valve check on the NT and she has. I did them on the two Concours regularly but am a bit intimidated by the NT. It makes me appreciate the plain old screw/nut fairing fasteners of the Connie. The nifty interlocking tabs of the NT fairing are great once you learn which way to slide things.
DirtFlier
Site Supporter
I did my second valve clearance check yesterday (at 9000 miles) and as predicted by Katherine, it went much faster. About 4-1/2 hours vs 8 hours the first time. My initial check at 800 miles showed all valves just on the loose side of the +/- spec. This time I found two intake valves slightly loose by a minute amount but all others were still OK. Going by what I found, I probably won't do it again for another 12k miles, or perhaps even longer? I had an idea about extending the head of the clamp screw (via welded extension) for the front cylinder throttle body since that's the one that is such a pain to reach. By the way, my Craftsman 5/8" spark plug socket fit nicely without any clearance problems.
karl
Site Supporter
"Normal" wear will open the valves less over time and reduce power. Combustion chambers are hostile environments and the valves need to be shut at times in order to transfer heat from the valves to prevent them from burning. Setting them too tight you run the risk of burnt valves, err to the loose side of the spec.
I did my first valve adjustment on Friday with about 3,500 miles on the odometer. I found the valves on the rear head all needed adjustment, but the front were all in spec. The hardest part was getting in there and then putting everything back.
I got done late and only started it to move it back into its parking spot and then went out of town for the weekend.
I got back today and rode the bike into town and back (about 8 miles one way). I kept smelling oil and after thinking about it for a hour or two, I think I must have got the gasket on the front cover crooked. That cover is very tight and it took at least 5 or 6 attempts to get it in with the gasket in place (I thought). I really could not see if it was in place and was working by feel mostly.
I guess I am going back in tomorrow to check it out. Any tips would be appreciated.
I got done late and only started it to move it back into its parking spot and then went out of town for the weekend.
I got back today and rode the bike into town and back (about 8 miles one way). I kept smelling oil and after thinking about it for a hour or two, I think I must have got the gasket on the front cover crooked. That cover is very tight and it took at least 5 or 6 attempts to get it in with the gasket in place (I thought). I really could not see if it was in place and was working by feel mostly.
I guess I am going back in tomorrow to check it out. Any tips would be appreciated.
garwil
I just did my valve check last Sat. I too smelled some oil. I was a little paranoid because I could not remove the crank cover plug and had to remove the left side (starter/alternator) cover to get access to the crank end. See "How to checking the valves" thread for picture. I was concerned the left side cover sealer was not holding. After putting in a good ride Sunday the smell is gone and no leaks. I believe a little oil got on the head and got hot but just not cleaning up well enough afterward, not an active leak. Some of those parts/gaskets are very difficult to see and going by feel is not the best if there is another way.
I don't know how bad your smell/leak is But I would not hurry to tear it apart. Look closely the best you can. You can see some of the front cyl cam cover gasket from under the steering head above the radiator. Look close and also see if the hot oil smell quickly goes away. Don't let an active leak go however. Besides oil leaking out, if the gasket is way off some dirt may get into the cam area.
Good luck,
Brad
I just did my valve check last Sat. I too smelled some oil. I was a little paranoid because I could not remove the crank cover plug and had to remove the left side (starter/alternator) cover to get access to the crank end. See "How to checking the valves" thread for picture. I was concerned the left side cover sealer was not holding. After putting in a good ride Sunday the smell is gone and no leaks. I believe a little oil got on the head and got hot but just not cleaning up well enough afterward, not an active leak. Some of those parts/gaskets are very difficult to see and going by feel is not the best if there is another way.
I don't know how bad your smell/leak is But I would not hurry to tear it apart. Look closely the best you can. You can see some of the front cyl cam cover gasket from under the steering head above the radiator. Look close and also see if the hot oil smell quickly goes away. Don't let an active leak go however. Besides oil leaking out, if the gasket is way off some dirt may get into the cam area.
Good luck,
Brad
Well, I was able to get back into the bike on Tuesday evening after work. There was no question that there was a leak as there was a puddle of oil under my bike and it dripping down the motor in many places.
After getting the body work out of the way and raising the tank, I removed the air box and throttle body. I was then able to see a portion of the rubber gasket produding from the right hand side of the front cover. When I had done the valve adjustment, I had finished up after dark by flashlight, but in the light of day, it was easy to spot.
I was able to loosen the bolts and tuck the gasket into place and tighten it down again without having to actually remove the cover. It was definetly easier to go in and out the second time as now I am more familier with the process.
I reduced the number of leftover bolts and screws to one and the number of missing screws to one. I suspect that the center screw in the air box should be a self tapping screw and I used a philips head bolt in that spot. Left over screw is a self tapping screw and I am missing a phillips head bolt from the left side farring pocket.
I have ridden the bike about 50 miles and there is no longer any oil leaking out, so I think I was succesful this time.
Even though there was an amazing amount of oil on everything, I could not detect a measurable loss of oil in the crank case. However, I will be cleaning oil out of all the nooks and cranies for a long time.
I was also able to install bar risers and have rough cut a new windsheald which I wll finish this evening. The new windsheald will be two inches wider and three inches taller than stock. I hope I can get it finished and installed as I plan to do an all day ride in Arkansas on Friday.
After getting the body work out of the way and raising the tank, I removed the air box and throttle body. I was then able to see a portion of the rubber gasket produding from the right hand side of the front cover. When I had done the valve adjustment, I had finished up after dark by flashlight, but in the light of day, it was easy to spot.
I was able to loosen the bolts and tuck the gasket into place and tighten it down again without having to actually remove the cover. It was definetly easier to go in and out the second time as now I am more familier with the process.
I reduced the number of leftover bolts and screws to one and the number of missing screws to one. I suspect that the center screw in the air box should be a self tapping screw and I used a philips head bolt in that spot. Left over screw is a self tapping screw and I am missing a phillips head bolt from the left side farring pocket.
I have ridden the bike about 50 miles and there is no longer any oil leaking out, so I think I was succesful this time.
Even though there was an amazing amount of oil on everything, I could not detect a measurable loss of oil in the crank case. However, I will be cleaning oil out of all the nooks and cranies for a long time.
I was also able to install bar risers and have rough cut a new windsheald which I wll finish this evening. The new windsheald will be two inches wider and three inches taller than stock. I hope I can get it finished and installed as I plan to do an all day ride in Arkansas on Friday.
Hey, why don't you start a new "How-To" thread on making and finishing a new windshield? I'm waiting for CeeBailey to come through with my replacement and I took out the two stubs that were left after my windshield broke last week when the bike fell over in the chocolate parking lot. I sawed them off and got to thinking that making a windshield might be feasible.
BTW, I'm glad you got your gasket back in on the first try! I spent a whole day once and finally got a Concours valve cover gasket back in after what seems like 10-15 tries. And, in my judgment, any mechanicking that only leaves you one screw left over has to have been an expert job. The first NT service I had, the tech at Sun Honda had two left over!
johnha
Guest
Get a little 1" telescoping mirror to go with your flashlight for inspection. Those valve cover gaskets can be knocked out of the groove on the valve cover without too much effort. If you have one that seems to be popping out at some location, a little dab of grease in the groove will help to hold it.
scoot750
Guest
I'm totally mystified at Honda building an engine that doesn't have hydraulic (i.e., maintenance-free) valves. It's not exactly new, bleeding-edge technology.
There are other reasons for non-hydraulic adjusters like performance issues, lightening up of the valve train for more RPM safely, etc.
Everything is a tradeoff. The NT valves are not exactly easy to get to but are easier than others that need camshafts pulled to change shims.
So I guess the NT is middle of the road on the valves.
Brad
scoot750
Guest
Dang, said "valves" when I should have said "lifters."
Brad, what you say is true. I realize there are performance issues and tradeoffs, but those seem to be dealt with pretty easily. Considering that the Nighthawk 750 and BMW F800ST have redlines in the 8500 - 9000 RPM range, and they've both got hydraulic lifters, it seems to me that Honda could have pretty easily built the NT engine to live with them. We're not talking about a supersport literbike, we're talking about a midsize sport tourer.
Disclaimer: I confess that I don't like working on my bikes, or paying someone to work on my bikes, any more than is absolutely necessary. I do what needs to be done to maintain the bike, but at heart I'm one of those lazy owners.
Are you sure about this as far as it applies to the F800ST? I've seen cutaway images of the F800 engine and I think I would have noticed hydraulic lifters.
scoot750
Guest
Yeah, don't know what I was thinking. BMW maintenance schedule calls for checking valve clearance every 12,000 miles. I must be getting old...
The ST1300 with Shim UNDER bucket is a 16k check interval.
elizilla
Guest
But I can't recall ever getting a valve adjust done on a car, or anyone I know talking about it, and I've ridden in a lot of high mileage cars over the years. I mean, that stuff must be in a car engine, but you have to move pretty far into OCD territory to actually think about it.
I have done valve adjustments in a lot of cars over the years starting with my 65 Austin Healy Sprite...
But hydraulic lifters got rid of that requirement for most cars many years ago. It is too bad Honda, and the other manufactures, can't figure that out in the motorcycle world!
LOL! Aren't we all?
Just thinking about hydraulic lifters on motorcycles...I'm wondering if the reason we haven't seen them very often is because of weight and more agressive cam profiles. I can't imagine that the hydraulic lifters wouldn't be heavier than the followers and adjusters we've got now. On automotive engines (or even two-valve engines like the 750 Nighthawk) the weight of the lifters could be a smaller part of the moving weight, and maybe increasing the valve-train component weight with hydraulic lifters would be less of an issue.
It might also be a simple matter of size.
Of course, I've never seen a hydraulic lifter, so all of my speculation is just that...pure speculation.