UK to possibly ban some ICE motorcycles starting in 2035?

[George S.]

There are actually several parallels from the early 20 th century to what’s happening today. Only 20 years after the first automobile was sold in the U.S., “the government“- actually some cities- did ban the use of horses In favor of automobiles.

So the switch from horses to cars DID have some help from the government spurring the changeover.

 

[NoNTnow]

This whole discussion is really kind of pointless since the two countries with the largest supply of the required rare earth materials, and other critical supplies such as chips, necessary for this green utopia are China and Russia. Last time I looked they aren't our, or the EU's, best friends. They can easily control or stop the EV change over, make it brutally expensive, delay it indefinitely in any combination they want. There is much more in play here than technology and power grids.

 

[George S.]

Pointless you say? Look up Robert Sansone, a 17 yr old high school student who just two days ago won a $75,000 prize in Regeneron’s ISEF science competition. He designed and built a working electric motor for electric vehicles that doesnt use any rare earth materials, instead using just copper, and his motor shows increased torque and increased efficiency over induction motors. Yes, his work needs more research but just goes to show we that don’t know, in 2022, what 2035 will bring.

And we get 65% of our chips from Taiwan, not China.

 

[NoNTnow]

Are you aware China is the worlds largest copper smelter producer? At least we do still produce about ten percent of their production level. That copper is needed for everything necessary for the changeover. Geopolitics is going to be the bigger issue.

 

[George S.]

Are you aware China is the worlds largest copper smelter producer? At least we do still produce about ten percent of their production level. That copper is needed for everything necessary for the changeover. Geopolitics is going to be the bigger issue.

Yes and if they have it they have to sell it to somebody. Copper is like $3 a pound and those rare earth materials are several hundreds of $ per pound. Jesus. I get it. You guys don’t want electric vehicles.

 

[mikesim]

Yes and if they have it they have to sell it to somebody. Copper is like $3 a pound and those rare earth materials are several hundreds of $ per pound. Jesus. I get it. You guys don’t want electric vehicles.

George, you mistake our comments as not wanting electric vehicles, our comments merely reflect pragmatism. Most of us are older and have varied technical backgrounds. We are also skeptical when our politicians latch onto their "cause du jour" as their wishful thinking generally involves a lot of wasted tax dollars. I for one believe that unless and until we can create an EV with the range of a comparable ICE vehicle, their future as our replacement vehicle is not promising. So far the EV's are hobbled by the energy density of the battery. Lithium so far is our best solution but it is far from ideal for various reasons. I believe that the most likely successor to the ICE engine, is another ICE engine, fueled not by fossil fuels but by hydrogen. I also believe that the most likely source of electrical power generation will be nuclear fission and perhaps one day fusion. In the meantime however we should not eliminate fossil fuels until we have an abundant, economical replacement,

Mike

 

[Chucksklrst]

Yes and if they have it they have to sell it to somebody. Copper is like $3 a pound and those rare earth materials are several hundreds of $ per pound. Jesus. I get it. You guys don’t want electric vehicles.

Not until they can match the performance, refuel times, range, availability of infrastructure, cost and cost of ownership as my ICE vehicle does now. Unfortunately I won't live long enough to see this come to fruition.

 

[ST1100Y]

This whole discussion is really kind of pointless since the two countries with the largest supply of the required rare earth materials, and other critical supplies such as chips, necessary for this green utopia are China and Russia. Last time I looked they aren't our, or the EU's, best friends. They can easily control or stop the EV change over, make it brutally expensive, delay it indefinitely in any combination they want. There is much more in play here than technology and power grids.

Last time I checked neither the US nor the EC are the pollution hot-spots on this planet...
But look for yourself:

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[Coyote Chris]

I would consider another electric motorcycle again. However, "NEVER" a Zero Motorcycles model again. I turned my back in 2017 as a manufacturer buy-back, and I never looked back or at their offerings since. The LiveWire offerings do not entirely convince me if this is an option I should be looking at now.

When the time comes, I am not looking for an electric cruiser or coach rocket when I do.

I am planning to be around until I am 90 years old. I guess I will have to switch back to electric in the next ten years or so.

Good luck with 90! I have seen some on bikes in their 80s. Whether they should be on bikes is debatable

 

[Coyote Chris]

Not until they can match the performance, refuel times, range, availability of infrastructure, cost and cost of ownership as my ICE vehicle does now. Unfortunately I won't live long enough to see this come to fruition.

Exactly. Right now for touring, only a hybred makes sense.

 

[Coyote Chris]

I think that the switchover to the EV by government edict is a huge and costly mistake. There are too many pitfalls regarding EV's that have yet to be resolved for the government to set a date certain for adoption. History has shown that letting the "market" adopt new technology will be the most efficient and least costly approach

It may well be the future but we wont see it. Remember when fossil fuel for power plants was supposed to be toast? Now look up China and India coal plant usage and new planned plants. IF fossil fuel damages the earth, then nuclear power and local solar is the only answer for now. Right now, its more of a priority to keep 1 million people up in the air at any given second..and a Boeing777 takes 10,000 pounds of fuel an hour to fly. Personally, I think we at the too little too late stage of fossil fuel usage if it indeed hurts the planet.

 

[DirtFlier]

One of the factors rarely mentioned in the transition from horses-to-horseless carriages was the amount of horse poop that had to be collected each day. I recall reading that in NYC, it amounted to many thousands of pounds each day.

Although not a big sales hit, I think the Chevy Volt - elec vehicle with on-board ICE for charging only - idea hit the nail on the head. The newer versions of the Volt are more conventional looking so perhaps doing better in sales?

As regards pricing of modern vehicles, I saw an ad on the internet (way too many ads!) for two versions of Jeep SUVs. One was $69k and the other was $89k...wow! How do people afford such prices? :-(

 

[harryhendo]

My GF's brother drove his Tesla Model Y from New Jersey to Virginia, about 300 miles. He stopped twice to get a 'supercharge', which takes ~30 minutes. His travel time wasn't that much different from mine when I drove my Chevy Sonic to his house. Plug in, get a cup of coffee and a sandwich, and relax. More and more charging stations are popping up everyday.

Sure, the car cost him $60,000. But he had the money. And he's always been an 'early adopter'. As more and more are produced, the price will come down. Really, $60K doesn't buy most gas fired pickups these days.

Think of it... no changes of oil, spark plugs, air filter, fuel filter, coolant, transmission fluid, ignition coils, etc..

He plugs it in at home where he has solar panels on the roof. Then at work for free. No more pulling into Exxon or Shell. It's a game changer.

And the car is very, very sweet to drive. So quiet. And passing is a complete thrill. It just leaps past other cars.

Some here may say that this change shouldn't happen, but, in reality, it already is happening.

 

[Chucksklrst]

You easterners need to understand that out west we don't have towns every 20 miles. We can go 300 miles and not even see a tree let alone another town. The infrastructure just is not out here. Traveling across West Texas or Utah or New Mexico or Nevada. Or eastern Colorado for that matter. And if any of the charging stations are going to be out here it will be along the freeways not the secondary highways. My wife use to tell me "each place has it own specific vehicle requirements." Out here in the wide open expanses of the west, it is not electric. Great for the crowded east or west coast but not so much for the flyover States, where a 300 mile ride can be just a trip to the grocery store and back.

 

[ARKNT]

One of the factors rarely mentioned in the transition from horses-to-horseless carriages was the amount of horse poop that had to be collected each day. I recall reading that in NYC, it amounted to many thousands of pounds each day.

My small hometown has some history buffs who dig up old news articles and such. This was northern Illinois and that horse poop on main street in the Winter basically had to wait for Spring thaw to get cleaned up. Yes, it could be a bit messy I would guess.
Neither electric nor ICE has that poop problem.

Arknt

 

[harryhendo]

You easterners need to understand that out west we don't have towns every 20 miles. We can go 300 miles and not even see a tree let alone another town.

When he got to my GF's house, he charged his car off my GF's dryer outlet. There's really nothing special about a charging station... 240V with a NEMA standard plug and an adapter.

An electric range of 300 miles is about what a gasoline car can get anyway. So what's the difference? Fillup or chargeup.

Wind turbines in western states are dumping their electricity because they can't get it to population centers. Perfect for charging stations.

Sure, this will all build out from the population centers. Just like gas stations did a 100 years ago. But I'm sure that the gas station in the middle of New Mexico has electric service already to keep all the beer and Gatorade cool. So putting up a few charging stations is a call to an electrician.

 

[Brillot2000]

Good luck with 90! I have seen some on bikes in their 80s. Whether they should be on bikes is debatable.

I know a gentleman that I have known for years. He's in his mid-80s now and still rides across the county and over in Europe every so often.

This leaves me with great hopes to be that guy when I reach that ripe age.

 

[Chucksklrst]

When he got to my GF's house, he charged his car off my GF's dryer outlet. There's really nothing special about a charging station... 240V with a NEMA standard plug and an adapter.

An electric range of 300 miles is about what a gasoline car can get anyway. So what's the difference? Fillup or chargeup.

Wind turbines in western states are dumping their electricity because they can't get it to population centers. Perfect for charging stations.

Sure, this will all build out from the population centers. Just like gas stations did a 100 years ago. But I'm sure that the gas station in the middle of New Mexico has electric service already to keep all the beer and Gatorade cool. So putting up a few charging stations is a call to an electrician.

A complete gasoline tank fill up takes about 15 mins. How long does a complete charge up take. I can also carry a couple of 5 gallon cans of gasoline with me. Can you carry a couple of cans of 60k watts each of electrons with you. I am not interested in waiting 2 to 8 hours in the hot desert to get another 300 miles down the road. And who is going to pay that country store owner out in the middle of no where, with maybe 2 gas pumps, for the charging stations, maint and and the electrons used for charging. There is a lot more that goes into this than just plopping a charging station here and there in these small little towns across the west. Don't get me wrong, I think the tech of electric cars is great, and E- cars do meet some needs, but they are not and never will be the end all, and will not solve "climate change" on a mass scale with out producing more unforeseen consequences. A combination of technologies and a choice of which technology one wants to use with out demonizing the other, is how all of this should be approached.

(A typical electric car (60kWh battery) takes just under 8 hours to charge from empty-to-full with a 7kW charging point. Most drivers top up charge rather than waiting for their battery to recharge from empty-to-full. For many electric cars, you can add up to 100 miles of range in ~35 minutes with a 50kW rapid charger. Nov 11, 2021 )

PS: hope that charging station out in BFE is operational when I get there, or there is not a line of E-cars waiting to use it. Better bring one sleeping bag.

 

[rc_heli_nut]

And the car is very, very sweet to drive. So quiet. And passing is a complete thrill. It just leaps past other cars.

Once people get a chance to experience how an EV performs, they'll be amazed. Personally, I'm looking forward to owning one someday.

 

[dnktng]

Wind turbines in western states are dumping their electricity because they can't get it to population centers. Perfect for charging stations.

That is untrue, and not how it works. Every wind project is connected to the grid... done... it can get to population centers if it is generating. If wind energy is available to generate it must be used. Simply add the wind energy, and subtract off equal amounts of hydro typically. If to much wind energy is generating and hydro can not go lower, take thermals plants off line.

Here is a more likely scenario for wind energy. We get a 5 day hot spell with added demand for air conditioning and the wind doesn't blow. High pressure weather systems make it hot, and often stagnant with no wind. So what supplies the added customer demand combined with the wind loss? Lucky for WA, hydro primarily, and some thermal startup (if not already online.) Sorry Cali, less power for you.