UK to possibly ban some ICE motorcycles starting in 2035?

[George S.]

Maybe in response to your comment quoted below???

My comment was in response to where you called them that. So I don’t know why you’re putting it on me.
The post right above your reply only mentioned the Zero motorcycle so I still don’t know why you went to “little e-bikes”

 

[mikesim]

A deadline is a good thing in that it serves as the impetus to spur researchers, engineers, and industry in general to move ahead and meet the deadline. It can always be moved near the end if certain necessary elements are not yet attainable.

With all due respect, what you suggest is a logical fallacy. A deadline is a date certain that some event will take place, while a goal is a date at which it is hoped that an event will transpire. In the case of the UK and now California, they announced that they are banning the sale of ICE vehicles beginning in 2035. Let's look at what must happen. The auto manufacturers now know that there will be a diminished or non-existent market for ICE powered vehicles beginning January 1, 2035. The auto industry has about a five to seven year lead time for production of new vehicles so beginning in 2028 or thereabouts they begin to set up production for the mandated EV's. Simultaneously, they know that there will be no market for ICE vehicles so they begin shutting down and eliminating certain elements of ICE production. Once these elements are shut down, they cannot be restored to full production at the flip of a switch. In order for the mandated elimination of ICE vehicles to occur smoothly, a lot of things must happen.

There must be sufficient raw materials and manufacturing capacity for the lithium batteries (China makes this uncertain)

There must be sufficient power generation to recharge the EV's once they enter the stream of commerce. (There currently is not enough generation capacity, nor is our existing grid capable of handling the additional load. Keeping in mind that we are also requiring utilities
to phase out fossil fuel generation and are not planning any new nuclear plants)

Certain rare earth elements used in the manufacture of the electric motors (and solar panels) are primarily controlled by China or a country under China's control.

I could continue on with many more obstacles that are in the way of the 2035 EV mandate. I am not against EV's, however I have a certain skepticism when it comes to government mandates without thought to their implementation or consequences.

I am amused at times when I listen to our politicians and feel gooders when they spout off about how this or that should happen. It reminds me of an axiom I learned a long time ago in engineering school..... "Nothing is impossible, .... for those that don't have to do it!"

Mike

 

[George S.]

OK thank you for the correction. It’s a goal.

Anyway, it’s been coming even without a government suggested goal. Ford has already said they can do 2 million EVs by 2026 and have 50% of their sales be EVs by 2030. So they aren’t just planning to flip a switch, they obviously have been working on it for years and they think they have it figured out for at least 8 years down the road. We’ll all see.

 

[Gabe]

FWIW, don't sell progress short - EVs have been in development and manufacture for quite some time in other parts of the world. Recall that the United States is way behind countries taking the changeover much more seriously. Some eye-opening statistics for those that aren't aware. EV manufacturers in the US can't keep up with demand anywhere, (and that's not government mandated demand).

There are currently 71 models of EVs for sale in the United States. (Forgot where that's cited in the news)
There are currently 18 manufacturers selling EVs with numerous model types and options available. List here - https://insideevs.com/reviews/344001/compare-evs/
It's expected that there will be 134 models on sale in the U.S. by 2024—more than double of what's available today. (Visual Capitalist)

Circling back to electric motorcycles... there over a dozen models already for sale around the world and in use. A glimpse at the news for electric motorcycles shows a lot of activity going on.

Electric Motorcycle News

The 15 Best Electric Motorcycles In The World

Plug-In: Best Electric Motorbikes For Touring 2022

My only point being - just because the United States is behind doesn't mean the rest of the world is.

 

[Mellow]

I always wondered about EV motorcycles... range and charging being the biggest hold back for anyone actually touring on one vs commuting on one.

I've yet to see anyone put a windmill on a motorcycle - basically, a radiator fan that would take advantage of the forward motion to charge an on-board battery... is that something that would even keep up with the battery usage or at least cut recharge time because you might recharge at 50% vs 10% and thus cost and recharge time reduced.

Solar panel aren't there yet in efficiency.. maybe someday but then you need the surface area so maybe only on big touring bikes w/top boxes.

 

[George S.]

I always wondered about EV motorcycles... range and charging being the biggest hold back for anyone actually touring on one vs commuting on one.

I've yet to see anyone put a windmill on a motorcycle - basically, a radiator fan that would take advantage of the forward motion to charge an on-board battery... is that something that would even keep up with the battery usage or at least cut recharge time because you might recharge at 50% vs 10% and thus cost and recharge time reduced.

Solar panel aren't there yet in efficiency.. maybe someday but then you need the surface area so maybe only on big touring bikes w/top boxes.

Im guessing that a windmill would introduce drag. The airflow used by the windmill is being blocked and prevented from passing through or around the motorcycle. And it would add some more weight.
Electric motorcycles use regenerative braking to a good result in extending range

If you can, have a look at the October issue of Road Runner Motorcycle Touring and Travel magazine. The Energica Experia motorcycle has a city range of 261 miles. It’s said you can tour for 180 miles on a mixed type of roads. If you just do 80 MPH on a highway the range drops to 130 miles. It charges to 80%in 40 minutes. Since 90% of U. S. workers commute 40 miles or less one way, one could ride this to work and home each day without needing to recharge it at work. The tester rode it for an hour and a half on some twisty roads and only used 25% of its battery. These figures show what mileage is gained by regenerative braking.

One big plus in my mind is this motorcycle looks like a “normal” motorcycle and not like many other vehicles that are trying to impress us by looking “futuristic”. A negative right now is it’s $25,000 price.

 

[Brillot2000]

Like many government edicts, the 2035 date and goal have not been fully thought through. Setting a date certain for the implementation of a new technology without consideration of the practicality or economic ramifications is a foolish decision.

Mike

As an old friend of mine said to me over 30 years ago. California is a giant cereal bowl, it's the land of Fruits, Nuts and Flakes. With that being said, I’m not surprised that they voted on slowly banning the internal combustion engine by 2035. I will certainly be around at that time getting close to retirement age. I have embraced the stupidity, accepted it, and have been molded by it. I will have to adapt to it when the time comes to purchase an electric vehicle. As a result I’ve halted purchasing any new motorcycle until I see what manufacturers offer in the lines of electric options in the years to come.

 

[DirtFlier]

My guess is that as more of the Japanese Big-4 makers introduce electric motorcycles, the prices will start to drop but by how much is the question?

 

[Gabe]

I always wondered about EV motorcycles... range and charging being the biggest hold back for anyone actually touring on one vs commuting on one.

I don't think a fan would work for the reasons cited above about inducing drag. To actually gain electricity back a motor / generator has to spin against magnets... you would need a LOT of wind to forcefully spin anything. The easiest method of recapturing this energy is the regenerative breaking that electric motorcycles and e-bikes have as it leverages momentum without additional drag. The regen works so well in EVs (and probably electric motorcycles) that in some cases you don't even need to tap the brakes much.

Drag is the enemy of the electric motorcycle. I had read somewhere that tucked in riders on a Zero SR/S got slightly more range than upright against the wind. Which is interesting to me as adding a hard trunk and hard bags on the side also introduces some level of additional drag. I'm hoping there will be more streamlined / aerodynamic options for touring. There is a touring windscreen option for Zero bikes, or aftermarket for most things. Example below.

Zero Accessories List

 

[Brillot2000]

I don't think a fan would work for the reasons cited above about inducing drag. To actually gain electricity back a motor / generator has to spin against magnets... you would need a LOT of wind to forcefully spin anything. The easiest method of recapturing this energy is the regenerative breaking that electric motorcycles and e-bikes have as it leverages momentum without additional drag. The regen works so well in EVs (and probably electric motorcycles) that in some cases you don't even need to tap the brakes much.

Drag is the enemy of the electric motorcycle. I had read somewhere that tucked in riders on a Zero SR/S got slightly more range than upright against the wind. Which is interesting to me as adding a hard trunk and hard bags on the side also introduces some level of additional drag. I'm hoping there will be more streamlined / aerodynamic options for touring. There is a touring windscreen option for Zero bikes, or aftermarket for most things. Example below.

Zero Accessories List

View attachment 19630

I used to own a 2015 Zero SR. I had what they referred to as the "Touring Sheid" installed on my bike. It helped with providing some wind projection.

This was the worst bike I ever owned in my 35 years of riding. Never a Zero Motorcycles ever again!!!

 

[Gabe]

I used to own a 2015 Zero SR. I had what they referred to as the "Touring Sheid" installed on my bike. It helped with providing some wind projection.

This was the worst bike I ever owned in my 35 years of riding. Never a Zero Motorcycles ever again!!!

That's a shame - all the reviews now have a lot of praise for Zero motorcycles. There are average joe rider reviews on YouTube with their main challenge as being the various complications with chargers (lots of kinks to work out still). I haven't heard of these issues with zero bikes on the latest generations (last 2-3 years maybe?) I'm hoping Honda comes out with an equivalent sport touring at some point because there isn't a lot of choices state side at the moment, but I know several manufacturers are working on new designs. They seem to be building up the market for the skinny/small/naked bikes first before getting to the bigger bikes.