bicyclist
Guest
I agree, for the reasons stated and because of the uneven wear of the front pads.
ABS or Not?
- Thread starter Daboo
- Start date
The FJR uses a linked braking system, but it is designed so that a light touch on the rear brake does not activate it.
Anything with ABS has most of the bits in place to do traction control. FJR traction control can be turned off.
Anything with ABS has most of the bits in place to do traction control. FJR traction control can be turned off.
This may sound silly, but If I couldn't have had a red NT I would have never bought one, so ABS was never part of my decision making process .
This may sound stupid, but the NT I fell in love with was red and I wasn't going to have it any other way except maybe black.
This may sound stupid, but the NT I fell in love with was red and I wasn't going to have it any other way except maybe black.
Does anyone have any numbers for stopping distances for a CBS NT700V vs. CBS & ABS NT700V? The only numbers I can find that are comparable are for a VFR800 with CBS vs CBS & ABS. I was a little surprised at how little the difference the stopping distances are for the VFR800 on dry pavement. And then the NT700V owners manual says:
...uneven surfaces....? What the heck is that? Sounds like every road I ride!
On to the topic of CBS and slow speed stopping. I noticed that my non-abs NT was getting difficult to control slow speed stops especially with the front wheel turned and only using the rear brake. It was clearly applying to much front brake & not enough rear brake. I bleed all the brakes and the problem was solved. I think air got in the rear brake lines when the NT was on it side. When there is no air in the brake lines I don't notice the front brake causing any control issues at slow speeds when using only the rear brake pedal....the rear brake is doing the greatest percentage of the stopping. So if i ever lay the NT over again, bleed the brakes.
In some situations, a motorcycle with ABS may require a longer stopping distance to stop on loose or uneven surfaces than an equivalent motorcycle without ABS. ABS cannot make up for road conditions,bad judgment, or improper operation of the brakes. It is still your responsibility to ride at reasonable speeds for weather, road surface, and traffic conditions, and to leave a margin of safety.
...uneven surfaces....? What the heck is that? Sounds like every road I ride!
On to the topic of CBS and slow speed stopping. I noticed that my non-abs NT was getting difficult to control slow speed stops especially with the front wheel turned and only using the rear brake. It was clearly applying to much front brake & not enough rear brake. I bleed all the brakes and the problem was solved. I think air got in the rear brake lines when the NT was on it side. When there is no air in the brake lines I don't notice the front brake causing any control issues at slow speeds when using only the rear brake pedal....the rear brake is doing the greatest percentage of the stopping. So if i ever lay the NT over again, bleed the brakes.
As a new rider with my NT as my first bike, in the past 2 years my hide has been saved several times. Bad weather (rain twice), oil and gravel on the road. Even a few riders slamming on brakes in group formation due to something up ahead where everyone grabs the brake. I can't possibly put a dollar value on the extra second(s) of control I had in those situations.
As a former firefighter and EMT I've seen firsthand what happens when people lose control for whatever reasons. No rider is perfect, no skill set is perfect - safeguards exist for our safety as backups to the unimaginable. Upfront I rationalized the extra cost of ABS as how much I valued not getting into a motorcycle accident if I had mere moments of more control, and ABS gives me more control in an emergency with than without. Personally I would be thrilled if ABS were mandated for their own good even if the biking community is dragged kicking and screaming into adoption. Over time the public will see safety benefits - just as seat belts, airbags, anti-lock brakes, traction control were and now even collision warning systems for drivers in cars for motorcyclists around them. ABS saved my hide a couple of times already when I was caught in surprise bad weather, and if someone has an option why anyone would turn it away is simply beyond me.
If I can leverage crazy things like ABS, helmets, gloves, riding armor and even air-bag vest technology to help my changes, then I shall. The risks are manageable and I would be foolish to argue against more safety just as I would be to drive a car without an air-bag or seat belt. But maybe I've just seen too many accidents first hand to have a healthy respect for our own mortality to pass up safety technologies. To each their own safety.
As a former firefighter and EMT I've seen firsthand what happens when people lose control for whatever reasons. No rider is perfect, no skill set is perfect - safeguards exist for our safety as backups to the unimaginable. Upfront I rationalized the extra cost of ABS as how much I valued not getting into a motorcycle accident if I had mere moments of more control, and ABS gives me more control in an emergency with than without. Personally I would be thrilled if ABS were mandated for their own good even if the biking community is dragged kicking and screaming into adoption. Over time the public will see safety benefits - just as seat belts, airbags, anti-lock brakes, traction control were and now even collision warning systems for drivers in cars for motorcyclists around them. ABS saved my hide a couple of times already when I was caught in surprise bad weather, and if someone has an option why anyone would turn it away is simply beyond me.
If I can leverage crazy things like ABS, helmets, gloves, riding armor and even air-bag vest technology to help my changes, then I shall. The risks are manageable and I would be foolish to argue against more safety just as I would be to drive a car without an air-bag or seat belt. But maybe I've just seen too many accidents first hand to have a healthy respect for our own mortality to pass up safety technologies. To each their own safety.
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The ABS causes extra long stopping distances when on surfaces such as gravel or washboard where locking the rear may help rather than hurt stopping distance.
In my experience, the linked brakes on the NT are not a big issue. The left-side pads do wear out sooner than the right side because of the rear brake activating the left front. I have been able to use the rear brake for slow speed turns without having the front brake interfere in a significant way.
Phil I totally agree that the linked brakes are not a problem in normal riding conditions.
If you look at the mechanics of the brake system the rear brake operates a single piston on one of the front calipers and that piston is about 30% smaller than the pistons operating from the front brake.
I have also ridden my NT700 on a skills improvement track day and I did not notice any problems even under the heavy braking conditions of that day.
If you look at the mechanics of the brake system the rear brake operates a single piston on one of the front calipers and that piston is about 30% smaller than the pistons operating from the front brake.
I have also ridden my NT700 on a skills improvement track day and I did not notice any problems even under the heavy braking conditions of that day.
DirtFlier
Site Supporter
I've inspected the front brake pads on my NT700V/w ABS several times and didn't see any significant difference in wear rates, left vs right, at 50k miles. Perhaps those who see major differences are using more rear brake than I do? This is not a bad thing, just a comment.
I'm neutral on linked brakes but feel it does greatly help those who habitually use the rear brake only because of habits learned from car driving. A very common car-vs-motorcycle accident is for the car to turn left in front of the motorcycle and the rider stomps hard on the rear brake which locks the rear wheel, then the rear slides out and the bike goes down. Students who bragged about "laying her down" to avoid an accident were really becoming the accident since they mistakenly thought sliding along the ground slowed the bike more than using the tires & brakes!
An extensive report done in the mid-80s of motorcycle accidents showed the motorcyclist typically had ample time & distance to stop but stomped on the rear brake, causing rear wheel lockup and fell. This was the main reason the original MSF course taught stopping distances with rear brake only vs front & rear combined so students could experience the difference.
For many years, perhaps still today, a lot of older riders were/are brain-washed into thinking they'd die if they ever touched the front brake. This misconception is passed down in what I call "bar stories." I once had a dad call and enroll his son in the basic riding course and in the process he asked "You're not going to teach him how to use the front brake are you?" When I replied that it was the only real brake on the motorcycle he became enraged.
I'm neutral on linked brakes but feel it does greatly help those who habitually use the rear brake only because of habits learned from car driving. A very common car-vs-motorcycle accident is for the car to turn left in front of the motorcycle and the rider stomps hard on the rear brake which locks the rear wheel, then the rear slides out and the bike goes down. Students who bragged about "laying her down" to avoid an accident were really becoming the accident since they mistakenly thought sliding along the ground slowed the bike more than using the tires & brakes!
An extensive report done in the mid-80s of motorcycle accidents showed the motorcyclist typically had ample time & distance to stop but stomped on the rear brake, causing rear wheel lockup and fell. This was the main reason the original MSF course taught stopping distances with rear brake only vs front & rear combined so students could experience the difference.
For many years, perhaps still today, a lot of older riders were/are brain-washed into thinking they'd die if they ever touched the front brake. This misconception is passed down in what I call "bar stories." I once had a dad call and enroll his son in the basic riding course and in the process he asked "You're not going to teach him how to use the front brake are you?" When I replied that it was the only real brake on the motorcycle he became enraged.
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I want to be able to disable the linked brakes in dirt riding. I don't want even a hint of front brake in that kind of condition.
Having said that, I have not yet delinked the brakes on the Goose and it has far more braking power linked to the rear brake than the NT (left disk and rear disk are activated from the pedal, front right disk from the hand lever).
One thing linked brakes have taught me is to use the foot more in braking. My first bike has a single disk front and drum rear. The rear brake was so ineffective that I never used it on the road. I had to relearn use of the foot when I got the Goose.
I would like to have a 'switch' to turn off the link when I go on a dirt road, but, that's a bit hard to do.
Having said that, I have not yet delinked the brakes on the Goose and it has far more braking power linked to the rear brake than the NT (left disk and rear disk are activated from the pedal, front right disk from the hand lever).
One thing linked brakes have taught me is to use the foot more in braking. My first bike has a single disk front and drum rear. The rear brake was so ineffective that I never used it on the road. I had to relearn use of the foot when I got the Goose.
I would like to have a 'switch' to turn off the link when I go on a dirt road, but, that's a bit hard to do.
JQL
Growing old disgracefully
The NT was never designed for dirt riding!
If you ride on a lot of dirt, you've bought the wrong bike.If you're going off-road on an NT, you go very slowly. If you're going to do a lot of off-roading/dirt riding, you should buy an "adventure" bike.
One of the women who works at Hospice was talking to me the other day and I said something about riding a motorcycle. I had noticed that she had a pretty massive scar along her collar bone and she said that she and her husband ride, but now they've got a Can-Am because he had "had to lay the Harley down" to avoid an accident. That's how she'd gotten injured. She had broken her collar bone, ribs, a cervical vertebrae, and her forearm. But, she said, "It could have been worse if hadn't laid it down."
I didn't even try to say anything about front brakes. I had a neighbor in Morgan who had ridden for 50 years and bragged to me that he had never touched his front brake. That's what had kept him safe. He had three wrecks in town within the next two years. I did argue with him about braking technique but he decided he was too old to ride and quit.
I didn't even try to say anything about front brakes. I had a neighbor in Morgan who had ridden for 50 years and bragged to me that he had never touched his front brake. That's what had kept him safe. He had three wrecks in town within the next two years. I did argue with him about braking technique but he decided he was too old to ride and quit.
The NT was never designed for dirt riding!
If you're going off-road on an NT, you go very slowly. If you're going to do a lot of off-roading/dirt riding, you should buy an "adventure" bike.
THAT's what I want to say ... I couldn't agree more!
Heck, this isn't single track stuff!!! There are a lot of dirt roads that don't require a dirt bike.
I'd like to go on one every now and then, like to get to a view point in one of the national parks or to navigate a larger campground. Death Valley, to get to the Kilns you have to ride about 5 miles on a dirt road. Canyonlands has a bunch of nice dirt roads it would be nice to see. Or to ride the Apache Trail (about 20miles of dirt road) etc, etc.
I have ridden down the Moki Dugway on the NT. While scary not having a rear brake only option I could get there. I'd just like to have to option of a rear only braking.
And if by going slowly you mean riding around at 10mph then you obviously have not tried to ride some of these.
I'd like to ride my motorcycle where I would take my family sedan. Linked brakes screw that up.
I'd like to go on one every now and then, like to get to a view point in one of the national parks or to navigate a larger campground. Death Valley, to get to the Kilns you have to ride about 5 miles on a dirt road. Canyonlands has a bunch of nice dirt roads it would be nice to see. Or to ride the Apache Trail (about 20miles of dirt road) etc, etc.
I have ridden down the Moki Dugway on the NT. While scary not having a rear brake only option I could get there. I'd just like to have to option of a rear only braking.
And if by going slowly you mean riding around at 10mph then you obviously have not tried to ride some of these.
I'd like to ride my motorcycle where I would take my family sedan. Linked brakes screw that up.
bicyclist
Guest
Exactly. If you live in a place which has few dirt roads, you probably don't see any reason to ride on them. There are lots of places in this country with many unpaved roads. There's absolutely no reason to avoid them because the bike wasn't designed for them. I've seen plenty of farmers' wives honkin down a dirt road in the Chevy and it wasn't designed for that, either. Motorcycles have been around since way before there were paved roads. Only in relatively recent times have there been "adventure bikes".
Charlie, the key to the Moki Dugway is to ride up. Then you don't need the brakes.:wink: The only scary part is finding a place to stop so you can gawk at the scenery.
Yep, next time I do Moki it will be going up instead.
That's another area I'd like to see is the 'Garden of the Gods' at the bottom of the Moki. But, it was another 20mi on dirt
That's another area I'd like to see is the 'Garden of the Gods' at the bottom of the Moki. But, it was another 20mi on dirt
To throw a bit of data out there on ABS, studies show it has better results using it than without, especially for novice riders. See the below report and finding, the results for using ABS speak for themselves.
Insurance Institute for Highway Safety:
Effects of Antilock Braking Systems on Motorcycle Fatal Crash Rates: An Update
Methods:
Motorcycle drivers involved in fatal crashes per 10,000 registered vehicle years during 2003 - 11 were examined for 13 motorcycle models offering optional ABS. Fatal crash rates for motorcycles with ABS were compared to rates for the same models without ABS.
Results:
ABS was associated with a 31 percent reduction in the rate of fatal motorcycle crashes per 10,000 registered vehicle years.
More excerpts:
Studies conducted on closed test tracks have demonstrated that ABS improves braking performance of both novice and experienced riders (Vavryn and Winkelbauer, 2004) and in a variety of situations (Green, 2006). In the Vavryn and Winkelbauer study, both novice and experienced motorcyclists achieved higher average braking decelerations with an ABS equipped motorcycle than with a non-ABS motorcycle. The Green study found that stopping distances tended to be shorter for ABS-equipped motorcycles in most test conditions, and typically fewer trials were required to achieve the best result with ABS compared to without. Importantly, Green noted that riders without substantial experience or skill were able to achieve high levels of performance using motorcycles equipped with ABS.
Other studies evaluated the potential for ABS to prevent real-world crashes. Crash reconstructions for a small sample of serious motorcycle crashes identified from insurance liability claims were used to determine how certain crashes could have been affected by ABS (Gwehenberger et al., 2006). About half of the crashes were deemed to be relevant to ABS, and the majority of those involved another vehicle violating the motorcyclist's right-of-way. It was estimated that between 17 and 38 percent of the crashes deemed to have been ABS-relevant could have been avoided had the motorcycles been equipped with ABS.
A 2011 study found that ABS reduces motorcycle fatal crash rate per registrations by a statistically significant 37 percent (Teoh, 2011).
Insurance Institute for Highway Safety:
Effects of Antilock Braking Systems on Motorcycle Fatal Crash Rates: An Update
Methods:
Motorcycle drivers involved in fatal crashes per 10,000 registered vehicle years during 2003 - 11 were examined for 13 motorcycle models offering optional ABS. Fatal crash rates for motorcycles with ABS were compared to rates for the same models without ABS.
Results:
ABS was associated with a 31 percent reduction in the rate of fatal motorcycle crashes per 10,000 registered vehicle years.
More excerpts:
Studies conducted on closed test tracks have demonstrated that ABS improves braking performance of both novice and experienced riders (Vavryn and Winkelbauer, 2004) and in a variety of situations (Green, 2006). In the Vavryn and Winkelbauer study, both novice and experienced motorcyclists achieved higher average braking decelerations with an ABS equipped motorcycle than with a non-ABS motorcycle. The Green study found that stopping distances tended to be shorter for ABS-equipped motorcycles in most test conditions, and typically fewer trials were required to achieve the best result with ABS compared to without. Importantly, Green noted that riders without substantial experience or skill were able to achieve high levels of performance using motorcycles equipped with ABS.
Other studies evaluated the potential for ABS to prevent real-world crashes. Crash reconstructions for a small sample of serious motorcycle crashes identified from insurance liability claims were used to determine how certain crashes could have been affected by ABS (Gwehenberger et al., 2006). About half of the crashes were deemed to be relevant to ABS, and the majority of those involved another vehicle violating the motorcyclist's right-of-way. It was estimated that between 17 and 38 percent of the crashes deemed to have been ABS-relevant could have been avoided had the motorcycles been equipped with ABS.
A 2011 study found that ABS reduces motorcycle fatal crash rate per registrations by a statistically significant 37 percent (Teoh, 2011).
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Gabe, thanks for the data.
Terry
Terry
I'm not sure I'll need a "next" bike, but a major factor would be availability of advanced ABS (like Ducati ABS cornering on the Multistrada 1200) that works even when the bike is in mid-tern. It would be great if, while leaning into a corner, you could feel comfortable braking hard, should that prove necessary. Any one who has found themselves entering a turn faster than they expected, or encountered a decreasing radius corner would benefit from the margin of safety afforded by advanced ABS.
http://www.ducati.com/bikes/multistrada/technology/index.do
Ken
http://www.ducati.com/bikes/multistrada/technology/index.do
Ken