Another Honda NT on the Horizon?

[harryhendo]

Why is a parallel twin a step-down from a V-twin?

A V-Twin has a better torque curve (max torque is at a lower rpm than on a parallel twin), peak HP is at a lower rpm, and it is a smoother engine. It doesn't need balance shafts. A parallel twin is also much less expensive to build, hence the reason it is used so often.

Take for example the CB500. That parallel twin engine has peak HP and torque at 9500 RPM and 8000 RPM respectively, while the NT has peaks at 8000 and 6500. I've had both bikes, and the NT is a much more enjoyable engine. The CB engine has to be wound up high to get any life out of it.

 

[mikesim]

Because Honda has already done all the EPA emission testing for this engine family, they do not need to design a new engine, go through all the required testing, and then get the EPA approval to move it into production.

But why is that considered a step down? To me it is using your resources wisely. From all reports I've heard the 1100 twin is a sweet engine.

Mike

 

[dnktng]

A V-Twin has a better torque curve (max torque is at a lower rpm than on a parallel twin), peak HP is at a lower rpm, and it is a smoother engine. It doesn't need balance shafts. A parallel twin is also much less expensive to build, hence the reason it is used so often.

Take for example the CB500. That parallel twin engine has peak HP and torque at 9500 RPM and 8000 RPM respectively, while the NT has peaks at 8000 and 6500. I've had both bikes, and the NT is a much more enjoyable engine. The CB engine has to be wound up high to get any life out of it.

I too have a CB500X and the parallel twin is much smoother than the NT, and it lugs down to a lower rpm before having to down shift. Max torque and Max HP... meh. I don't operate at those rpms for long periods of time anyway. I want torque and HP at the RPM's I operate at... 3000 to 5000.

My opinion is that the CB500X engine fits the CB500x model better than the NT700 engine fits the NT700 model. The NT could use more low end HP, and maybe a 6th gear. But they're both great rides, and I love having the NT for colder weather riding season... HUGE advantage the NT has over the CB.

 

[Phil Tarman]

I can't believe that the torque curve on a 2-cylinder engine gets its shape from the cylinder arrangement. Dan's statement about about the way the engines feels fits with what I've heard other people say.

As long as I've had my NT, I've argued that the gear spacing on the NT is perfect for the engine's power delivery. If you had six speeds, like so many people want so they can have lower engine speeds at higher road speeds, you wouldn't have the ability to reach and maintain those higher speeds because you wouldn't be up in the power band. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it!

 

[mikesim]

I don't believe that torque output in an ICE is determined by cylinder configuration per se. More important to torque characteristics are oversquare vs undersquare piston setup. Most examples of higher torque engines are undersquare with the stroke length greater than the bore diameter. Valve timing and piston velocity also play a significant role in torque development. As far as engine smoothness, the v-configuration can play a significant role along with ignition timing. The 90° cylinder configuration (think Ducati) is in inherent balance whereas a 45° configuration (think Harley) is not. Smoothness or balance can be engineered into an engine with the use of balance shafts and can be controlled to a degree by firing arrangement. In the Honda NT engine which is a 52° V, Honda chose to use an offset crankpin which puts the engine in inherent balance. Many parallel twins now use a 270° firing arrangement to simulate the sound of a 45° v-twin which every one loves.

Mike

 

[RedLdr1]

As long as I've had my NT, I've argued that the gear spacing on the NT is perfect for the engine's power delivery. If you had six speeds, like so many people want so they can have lower engine speeds at higher road speeds, you wouldn't have the ability to reach and maintain those higher speeds because you wouldn't be up in the power band. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it!

Ah, you might want to downshift it if you want to reach those higher speeds. And enjoy less engine noise and vibration at lower speeds thanks to a sixth gear... Now how to find 20 more horsepower is the next issue.

 

[oldtimer]

Personally, I wish the manufacturers would use belt drive like the Harley's. BMW did use belt drive on the 2013 - 2020 F800GT sport tourer, direct competition for the NT. It weighs 100 lbs less than the NT, all most all due to belt vs shaft. Then again, the 800GT didn't sell well in the USA.

 

[Phil Tarman]

Ah, you might want to downshift it if you want to reach those higher speeds. And enjoy less engine noise and vibration at lower speeds thanks to a sixth gear... Now how to find 20 more horsepower is the next issue.

I guess if it had a 6th gear I'd use it. But I haven't noticed much engine noise or vibration with the 5-speed and I'm willing to bet a 6-speed wouldn't make it any faster. I think, given the horsepower, it's probably drag limited at something less than 120mph in top gear.

 

[Frosty]

Personally, I wish the manufacturers would use belt drive like the Harley's. BMW did use belt drive on the 2013 - 2020 F800GT sport tourer, direct competition for the NT. It weighs 100 lbs less than the NT, all most all due to belt vs shaft. Then again, the 800GT didn't sell well in the USA.

I bought a new 2015 F800 GT in addition to my 2010 700 NT. It ticks many boxes that NT owners complained about ... lighter, 50% more power, 6 speeds, etc. I still like the GT. Red Bird has an earlier model, the BMW 800 ST. I do like the belt drive. They were expensive to replace, but now you can buy them from someone other than BMW. The downside is that it is a BMW and repairs are dear.

 

[Phil Tarman]

Have you gotten your VFR running yet, Frosty?

 

[Warren]

I guess if it had a 6th gear I'd use it. But I haven't noticed much engine noise or vibration with the 5-speed and I'm willing to bet a 6-speed wouldn't make it any faster. I think, given the horsepower, it's probably drag limited at something less than 120mph in top gear.

Back when MCN did their road test on the NT700V they listed the top speed at 118 mph and their text bike had a top box on it which might have had a slight impact on the top speed.

 

[Coyote Chris]

A (yawn) parallel twin, in a (yawn) steel chassis, with (yawn) chain drive, and the looks of an angry insect. It's a Honda parts bin creation to cheaply fill a gap in the lineup.

I like the way you think. !!!! Nothing there for me at this time in my life. Note the crappy glove box sized panniers just like the NT. Cruise control, belt, shaft, or enclosed chain and big lids are a must and take the pork out of the top heavy bike.....If I cant to fall over I will ride my FJR with the roll bars, canyon cages and sliders, thank you very much. 800-900 ccs are just fine. The US market is Harleys and adv. tourers. My little v 650 strom goes down the road very nice, was under 8 grand, and has launch assist. It doesnt get tired and doesnt want to take a nap.
Angry insect! YOU are killin me! LOL!

 

[Coyote Chris]

I don't believe that torque output in an ICE is determined by cylinder configuration per se. More important to torque characteristics are oversquare vs undersquare piston setup. Most examples of higher torque engines are undersquare with the stroke length greater than the bore diameter. Valve timing and piston velocity also play a significant role in torque development. As far as engine smoothness, the v-configuration can play a significant role along with ignition timing. The 90° cylinder configuration (think Ducati) is in inherent balance whereas a 45° configuration (think Harley) is not. Smoothness or balance can be engineered into an engine with the use of balance shafts and can be controlled to a degree by firing arrangement. In the Honda NT engine which is a 52° V, Honda chose to use an offset crankpin which puts the engine in inherent balance. Many parallel twins now use a 270° firing arrangement to simulate the sound of a 45° v-twin which every one loves.

Mike

My opinion is that the gear spacing of a six speed, if done right, throws the whole torque curve business out the window and is irrevelent. Lows need to be lower. Highs need to be higher. six wide spaced gears so I dont feel like I have to skip gears....The C10 that Phil and I and Jungle Jim had was terrible. Everyone always reached for seventh gear. First needed to be lower for that top heavy bike.
The 2014 FJR has lots of torque and smooth power. At 150 hp/1300 ccs, it better have! Gearing is fine for a five speed although low could be a tad lower. So what does Yamaha do for the next gen FJR? They raise first and raise top gear and put in a 6 speed it never needed....go figure.
All the great bikes have been built....

 

[NewTo700V]

The NT1100 is a step down? I would strongly doubt it. Anyone saying that ever take a NT700 westbound across New Mexico on I-40 into strong head winds? Throttle pegged, ducking below the windshield and still losing speed. I would guess the NT1100 would do a little better.

 

[Phil Tarman]

The latest issue of my favorite motorcycle magazine, Bike, has test of four bikes they took on their first ride of the season that included camping out. The bikes were the K1600GT, the Versys 1000, a Triumph 900, and the NT1100. The K1600 was extraordinary, but too big especially on roads that had unusually steep and tight hairpins; the Versys was OK, but not great; the Triumph was just not enough bike, but it worked. The NT was the bike that all four of their testers ended up liking the best. They said it didn't "shout" its virtues at you, but that over extended riding, it put everything else in the shade.

 

[ST1100Y]

The NT was the bike that all four of their testers ended up liking the best. They said it didn't "shout" its virtues at you, but that over extended riding, it put everything else in the shade.

Likely because Honda got the suspension geos right (again)...
Mounts like the NT700/VA (or the ST1100) are generally rated as "unspectacular" or "lack of character", simply because you don't have to fight, wrestle or manhandle them around corners, they don't require your/constant attention for doing the job, fix your view at the exit point of the corner you intend to go through, apply gentle counter-steering and you'll end up exactly in the line and the exit you were looking at... no surprises, no corrections required, no sudden falling inward or running wide, they just run like on rails, precise...

 

[ST1100Y]

OTOH, that NT has just been released...

Honda Africa Twin 1100, NT 1100: Recall for software update - MotorBike.gr

Africa Twin 1100, NT 1100, Goldwing and CBR 1000RR recalled The recall affects 340 bikes in total, mainly the Africa Twin 1100, but also the NT 1100, Goldwing and CBR 1000RR. According to the General Secretariat of Industry, it is announced that the company Sarakaki Brothers AEVME, official...

www.kiratas.com

 

[Phil Tarman]

According to my favorite British motorcycle magazine, "Bike," the NT1100 is their favorite bike of the newer touring bikes. It's not the most exciting, they say, but it's fast, comfortable, and reliable. It's one of the few bikes they rate as a 10 out of 10.

 

[Warren]

According to my favorite British motorcycle magazine, "Bike," the NT1100 is their favorite bike of the newer touring bikes. It's not the most exciting, they say, but it's fast, comfortable, and reliable. It's one of the few bikes they rate as a 10 out of 10.

Fast, comfortable and reliable. Sounds pretty exciting to me.

I am however no longer in the market for a motorcycle of that size even if it were to become available in the US.

 

[ST1100Y]

... it's fast, comfortable, and reliable.

Proofs that it's a Honda... they got ergos, steering geo, power-weight-gear ratio right... again...

Concept & design seem dictated by other things then serious long distance touring though...
Basically its a just Crossrunner/Crossrider derivation...

Just spent 2 weeks in Norway, my GF was so happy with the faired NT700... and still, despite I'd installed a larger screen, hand deflectors and a belly fairing on her NT, she got more bug-splashed, soaked and dirtied then me on the full faired ST1100...
And in foul weather it matters if you enter an accommodation almost fully dry, or soaked and dripping all over the floors...
Need to do a fast connection on the motorway, an ST literally just coast along at 160kph/100mph...