Help Pleezz ! Intermittent Starting Problem

[steven fox]

New 2010 NT-700 ABS owner here. ( (First off, Many thanks for everyone's tips last week on installing pull latches on side cases. 'Seems to be working fine.) )
Current issue: Intermittent starting problem. I turn on ignition, bike doesn't crank. No clicking noise. Headlight, instrument lights illuminate brightly. But no start. I've tried shifting in and out of neutral, raising and lowering side stand..... Nada ! Then 5, 10, or 15 minutes later, I turn key and it starts fine. This has happened several times in the past 48 hours. New battery installed couple weeks ago. Brother arriving tomorrow for long-planned mc trip. Any help greatly appreciated ! Steven

 

[Mellow]

Might be the starter button/switch, spray some contact cleaner in there.

One test, push the starter button and wiggle it to see if it makes contact.

 

[rc_heli_nut]

This problem seems to come up in posts from time to time, I know the starter button is tied into the kill switch because the starter won't engage with the switch not in run, have you tried cycling the kill switch a few times? I actually use the kill switch quite often, and have not had this problem. Perhaps the kill switches are getting intermittent no-contact from not being used. Just a thought.

 

[steven fox]

Big thanks, Guys, for the prompt replies! 'Thought i had some contact cleaner here, but nope. Neither does Advance or O'Reilly's. Anything else I could use in a pinch? 'Would a spritz of WD-40 be safe to try, or is that a no-no?

 

[Mellow]

It's OK to try.

 

[Brillot2000]

New 2010 NT-700 ABS owner here. ( (First off, Many thanks for everyone's tips last week on installing pull latches on side cases. 'Seems to be working fine.) )
Current issue: Intermittent starting problem. I turn on ignition, bike doesn't crank. No clicking noise. Headlight, instrument lights illuminate brightly. But no start. I've tried shifting in and out of neutral, raising and lowering side stand..... Nada ! Then 5, 10, or 15 minutes later, I turn key and it starts fine. This has happened several times in the past 48 hours. New battery installed couple weeks ago. Brother arriving tomorrow for long-planned mc trip. Any help greatly appreciated ! Steven

I would first start with cleaning the stater button with some a good quality contact cleaner. Then move onto the starter solenoid. Possibly looking at the clutch lever switch and then kickstand switches as well. Check all connections at these points and clean them as required. Applying some dielectric grease will help with any future contact corrosion.

One more quick question. When you turn on the key, do you here the pump turn on?
If not, the starting issue be as simple as the kill switch or with the fuel pump.

There are some rare instances that the starter motor is actually bad.

 

[DirtFlier]

WD-40 is essentially a solvent + light oil and it's not the best of solutions for cleaning electrical contacts.

 

[steven fox]

Thanks, guys. The bike has been sitting in a basement storage room that i'm in process of turning into small bike garage. Contractor busted out the opening for the double door last week, but door hasn't yet arrived. Also got a bit of moisture down there in recent storms, so I've been running a box fan to dry things out. (Dehumidifier died.... another on order.)
'Occurs to me that some of that moisture may have ended up in the contacts of the starter switch... or else debris may have been blown in by the fan. Or both.
With no contact cleaner available here in town, I ordered some from Amazon, scheduled to arrive Tuesday. Fingers crossed that'll solve the problem. Thanks again for your help.

 

[Coyote Chris]

I dont have an NT schematic anymore but if someone does, it might help if our friend has some simple electrical skills.
At the end of the day, a computer makes the decisions on what happens when, but the most likely candidates are a daisy chain of
switches and their associated connectors that tell the computer to fire up the fuel pump, and get ready to pulse the sparking plugs and fire the injectors when the starter turns.
You turn on the switch, then hit the start button. What that button does will be on the schematic. And if that logic high or low gets to where it needs to be.
On My XT wee strom, the starter button is a "request to start" switch. You bump it once and let go and the engine cranks till the bike starts.
With a voltmeter and knowing where to have it when the beast wont work, this could be not a bad fix.
If I were desperate enough, I would put a parallel start button that bypasses all the daisy chain and goes right to the computer input or what ever the button logic goes. This would at least cut the horse in half.

 

[DirtFlier]

Steven Fox - If you remove that switch module from the right side of the handlebar and get at the back of the switch, the cleanup has a much better chance of working. There are only two Phillips screws that hold that piece to the handlebar, and both come in from the bottom. Use a screwdriver with the proper (JIS) tip!

 

[Brillot2000]

I reviewed the wiring diagram thoroughly regarding the Starter Solenoid Circuit and was able to narrow it to these wire colors.

• Yellow/Red - Solenoid Power (+) from the start button
• Green/Red - Solenoid Power (-) & Clutch Switch
• Green/White - Clutch Switch, Sidestand Switch, & then to the ECM

Again, I would start with cleaning the starter button first.

 

[rc_heli_nut]

I'd be interested to know what fixes it.

 

[Coyote Chris]

I reviewed the wiring diagram thoroughly regarding the Starter Solenoid Circuit and was able to narrow it to these wire colors.

• Yellow/Red - Solenoid Power (+) from the start button
• Green/Red - Solenoid Power (-) & Clutch Switch
• Green/White - Clutch Switch, Sidestand Switch, & then to the ECM

Again, I would start with cleaning the starter button first.

OK, my memory is shot.
This is the way I remember most bikes working.
If the side stand is down and the engine starts, if you put it in gear, the engine dies.
If the bike is in gear, the starter wont work unless the clutch is pulled in. If the bike is in neutral, the bike will start without the clutch being pulled in.

So like any Boy Scout, I got out my VFR Schematic
There is a starter inhibitor relay #1
Starter inhibitor relay #2
Clutch Switch
Clutch diode pack
Neutral switch
Neutral diode pack
Starter switch
Engine stop switch
Engine stop relay
And probably something I missed., like all the connectors these go through.
(I went blind before i could see if there was a starter switch enable logic output from the ECM)

 

[Brillot2000]

OK, my memory is shot.
This is the way I remember most bikes working.
If the side stand is down and the engine starts, if you put it in gear, the engine dies.
If the bike is in gear, the starter wont work unless the clutch is pulled in. If the bike is in neutral, the bike will start without the clutch being pulled in.

So like any Boy Scout, I got out my VFR Schematic
There is a starter inhibitor relay #1
Starter inhibitor relay #2
Clutch Switch
Clutch diode pack
Neutral switch
Neutral diode pack
Starter switch
Engine stop switch
Engine stop relay
And probably something I missed., like all the connectors these go through.
(I went blind before i could see if there was a starter switch enable logic output from the ECM)

The diode blocks wasn’t worth mentioning as they hardly ever go bad. The ECM only monitors the side stand position switch status. Nothing that quite sophisticated going on with this bike with ECM solenoid enabling. Probably it has been like that since the introduction of the side stand switch back in the 1990s.

However, the Engine Stop switch is the enable for many system sensors and what-nots. If that switch is not in proper operating order the bike won’t start no matter what you do to state obvious.

 

[Coyote Chris]

The diode blocks wasn’t worth mentioning as they hardly ever go bad. The ECM only monitors the side stand position switch status. Nothing that quite sophisticated going on with this bike with ECM solenoid enabling. Probably it has been like that since the introduction of the side stand switch back in the 1990s.

However, the Engine Stop switch is the enable for many system sensors and what-nots. If that switch is not in proper operating order the bike won’t start no matter what you do to state obvious.

The problem is you have this huge logic chain where all the switches and associated connectores can make gremlins. ECUs and diode blocks seldom go bad....Starter inhibitor relay sockets can go bad if dirty. I would probably shot gun this. Exercise all the sockets and conncetors, clean what you can.....but if the ECU is out of the equation, I would have a plan "B". What do I have to jury rig up to fire the start solinoid if I had to?

An interesting question rears its ugly head. If the ECU is happy to look for a pulse from the crank and cam position sensors and fire off the plugs and fuel injectors, could you then push start this bike if you had to?

 

[mikesim]

The problem is you have this huge logic chain where all the switches and associated connectores can make gremlins. ECUs and diode blocks seldom go bad....Starter inhibitor relay sockets can go bad if dirty. I would probably shot gun this. Exercise all the sockets and conncetors, clean what you can.....but if the ECU is out of the equation, I would have a plan "B". What do I have to jury rig up to fire the start solinoid if I had to?

An interesting question rears its ugly head. If the ECU is happy to look for a pulse from the crank and cam position sensors and fire off the plugs and fuel injectors, could you then push start this bike if you had to?

Good question! I suspect the answer depends on what the actual gremlin is and whether it lies with the circuit that is being interrupted preventing the starter from working. I have often wondered, all else being equal if the NT can be push started.

Mike

 

[Brillot2000]

The challenge with vehicles of these types is that an index pulse to the ECU at a predetermined point to initialize the sequence events to follow on the next revolutions. Rolling 5 to 10 feet and then popping the clutch in either first or second gear might not be enough momentum to spin the engine several revolutions to get enough for everything doing what is required for stable combustion to take place. A steep long decline would probably do it. However, not fun pushing the bike up back up if it does not work.

 

[Phil Tarman]

Not long after I bought Dudley, I was in Colorado Springs for a 3-day meeting. When I left I stopped at a Wendy's for lunch, was in there 40 minutes and came out and realized I'd left the switch on. The battery wouldn't do much of anything, but the parking lot was connected to another and there was a long hill down and across that lot. I pushed the bike and let it get up to 15mph or so and tried starting it. No go. I repeated again and still no go. My theory about why it wouldn't start is that there wasn't enough voltage to run the fuel pump. I got a tow to the Honda dealer and they couldn't get to it to work on, but they jumped it and it started and ran fine.

 

[rc_heli_nut]

The NT's ECM is programmed to delay the injector pulses and spark for approx 2 seconds after the starter first spins the engine, thus allows the crankshaft to get to a sufficient speed for starting smoothly. Modern cars are programmed this way too.

I'm afraid the days of bump starting are over.

 

[Brillot2000]

The NT's ECM is programmed to delay the injector pulses and spark for approx 2 seconds after the starter first spins the engine, thus allows the crankshaft to get to a sufficient speed for starting smoothly. Modern cars are programmed this way too.

I'm afraid the days of bump starting are over.

I would have to concur with this statement.

When fuel injection got introduced things became more complicated as digital timing is required to start the sequence of events to support starting an engine.

A simple points ignition or CDI system only required a single revolution in most cases to produce a spark to begin the combustion process. Modern engines require multiple revolutions to set the stage before the show can start. That plus a minimum operation voltage and a power reserve is required to support all the electronics involved too. If the battery is too low, all bets are off.