Help Pleezz ! Intermittent Starting Problem

[Coyote Chris]

I would have to concur with this statement.

When fuel injection got introduced things became more complicated as digital timing is required to start the sequence of events to support starting an engine.

A simple points ignition or CDI system only required a single revolution in most cases to produce a spark to begin the combustion process. Modern engines require multiple revolutions to set the stage before the show can start. That plus a minimum operation voltage and a power reserve is required to support all the electronics involved too. If the battery is too low, all bets are off.

I respectfully disagree. I do agree that in Phil's case with a low battery, all bets are off for push starting. Hit a start button and watch the voltmeter on your bike. There has to be a voltage level to drive the injectors and the ECM.....and the starter.

I am sorry Brillot2000 but there is no way I ever had to wait 2 seconds of engine turning before my NT started. I am not saying there isnt a delay....but no way is it two seconds. A short delay makes sense in that the ECM needs to see the pulses from the Cam and Crank position sensors.
I would say the delay on my VFR is maybe 250 ms but certainly no more than 500 ms. But its a four cyl. I will also tell you this...I have accidently hit the kill switch on a number of bikes and just as soon as I have flipped the switch back, the bikes came alive. The only way to prove the push start therory is to try it with a working bike.
Someone needs to take their NT out and coast down to a fairly low speed in say 4th gear, pull in the clutch, kill the engine with the switch, flip the switch back, and let the clutch out. Or, if you really want a definitive proof. Coast, pull in clutch, kill the engine, turn the ignition switch off, turn the kill switch back to normal and then turn on the ignition switch and let out the clutch. If the bike starts, then the NT can be started with a pull or push start of some speed...

 

[mikesim]

I have not heard of a two second delay routine in any of the vehicles that I have owned or serviced. I agree with the Coyote that a two second cranking interval before firing seems excessively long. Traveller fires up almost instantaneously after hitting the start button. Try this..... mentally press the start button and then count one-thousand one, one-thousand two. Does your FI vehicle crank that long before firing? None of mine do. Just for grins, the next time I'm on Traveller going down a long hill with no traffic, I will hit the kill switch and then see if the engine restarts and report back.

Mike

 

[Brillot2000]

I respectfully disagree. I do agree that in Phil's case with a low battery, all bets are off for push starting. Hit a start button and watch the voltmeter on your bike. There has to be a voltage level to drive the injectors and the ECM.....and the starter.

I am sorry Brillot2000 but there is no way I ever had to wait 2 seconds of engine turning before my NT started. I am not saying there isnt a delay....but no way is it two seconds.

Respectfully, I must point out that my comments were in a number of engine revolutions, not 2 seconds specifically. That was someone else comment, not me. I only agreed with the concept without getting into greater detail, the chain of events, or digital timing.

To quote me below.

The challenge with vehicles of these types is that an index pulse to the ECU at a predetermined point to initialize the sequence events to follow on the next revolutions. Rolling 5 to 10 feet and then popping the clutch in either first or second gear might not be enough momentum to spin the engine several revolutions to get enough for everything doing what is required for stable combustion to take place. A steep long decline would probably do it. However, not fun pushing the bike up back up if it does not work.

A non-specific example of digital timing is shown below.



FYI, in general, many systems require an index pulse when cranking the engine to tell the system to start processing additional inputs and acting upon them.

 

[rc_heli_nut]

I should have stated revolutions, not seconds. My bad.

 

[seagrass]

Interestingly I have just upgraded the electronic ignition system in my 1982 Honda CX500 with a Rae-SAN unit (made in Australia and sold world wide) and that ignition system allows two engine revolutions before firing the spark plugs. The CX500 has never started better.

Seagrass

 

[steven fox]

Hey Again Guys, 'Was on the road, hence my tardy reply. Bike ran fine from Asheville, NC nearly out to the Atlantic coast, with no starter issues. However, on the way back I stopped for gas and , again, the starter wouldn't light. Phoned Honda tech who emailed me schematics. Jumped across the starter relay to fire it up, and eventually made it home -- final 2-1/2 hours without shutting off the engine. I'm guessing that moisture and debris from the fan in garage is the culprit, as the contacts in the kill/starter assembly were funky. I've ordered a new one and am keeping fingers crossed that solves the problem. Once again, many thanks for all your help. SF

 

[steven fox]

In the continuing story of elec issues on my 2010 NT700 ABS. .....
On advice of Honda service mgr, I used rubber-handled needle nose pliers to jump over the starter solenoid and get the bike started. Worked fine .... and has started perfectly (since I discovered the fuse alongside the solenoid was not fully seated. Possibly rattled a bit loose due to V-twin vibration?
In any case, now, on the eve of my leaving the bike in storage for the next 5 months, my Battery Tender Junior is slow-flashing alternate red and green lights.
I see, elsewhere on the web, that that indicates the "battery is hooked up wrong -- reversed polarity" !?
Question: Could jumping over the starter solenoid that one time have somehow screwed up the polarity?
As I say, bike starts fine, now. But certainly won't after 5 months without battery tender.
Any help appreciated ! SF

 

[mikesim]

No

In the continuing story of elec issues on my 2010 NT700 ABS. .....
On advice of Honda service mgr, I used rubber-handled needle nose pliers to jump over the starter solenoid and get the bike started. Worked fine .... and has started perfectly (since I discovered the fuse alongside the solenoid was not fully seated. Possibly rattled a bit loose due to V-twin vibration?
In any case, now, on the eve of my leaving the bike in storage for the next 5 months, my Battery Tender Junior is slow-flashing alternate red and green lights.
I see, elsewhere on the web, that that indicates the "battery is hooked up wrong -- reversed polarity" !?
Question: Could jumping over the starter solenoid that one time have somehow screwed up the polarity?
As I say, bike starts fine, now. But certainly won't after 5 months without battery tender.
Any help appreciated ! SF

No, jump starting with the needle nose could not have reversed polarity. Make sure that you haven't hooked up the tender in reverse. If it is hooked up correctly, leave it connected for a bit and see what the light shows after an hour or so. You could have a defective tender. Test the tender on your car and see if it behaves ok there.


Mike

 

[Brillot2000]

No, that is an impossibility. Unless the laws of Physics changed without me knowing it. Please bury that notion immediately.

The starter solenoid is a high current plunger typed switch or contactor. You were simply substituting the plunger action with the pliers to allow the current to flow to the starter motor and cause it to operate.

Most tender chargers use a 2-pin SAE connector with a male and female connector and molded key feature. The only possible way for the polarity to be wrong would be the installation of the cable onto the motorcycle's battery. Please verify your connections and make sure the cable ends are installed onto the correct battery terminals.

 

[Sunny]

Most tender chargers use a 2-pin SAE connector with a male and female connector and molded key feature. The only possible way for the polarity to be wrong would be the installation of the cable onto the motorcycle's battery. Please verify your connections and make sure the cable ends are installed onto the correct battery terminals.

Actually it may be possible even with right installation but wrong SAE cable.

I realized that there are 2 kinds of SAE cables:

1) Where Positive pin is enclosed - used when power delivery side is a battery, since batteries have no current protection, an exposed + is very dangerous
2) Where positive pin is exposed - when the power delivery side is a charger etc that has current protection.

So, a SAE cable with ring terminals on one side can be of 2 types:

1) where ring terminals go into battery: the SAE plug has + enclosed
2) where ring terminals are used for a devices, there the SAE plug has + exposed.

Both cables look similar, and easy to swap... ask me how I know

 

[mikesim]

As an option to the SAE connector, most Battery Tenders come with a pair of alligator clips for those who don't want to go to the trouble of hard wiring the SAE cable to their battery. Alligator clips are quite easy to hook up incorrectly.

Mike

 

[Phil Tarman]

As an option to the SAE connector, most Battery Tenders come with a pair of alligator clips for those who don't want to go to the trouble of hard wiring the SAE cable to their battery. Alligator clips are quite easy to hook up incorrectly.

Mike

And they are a booger to connect to positive terminal.

 

[steven fox]

No

No, jump starting with the needle nose could not have reversed polarity. Make sure that you haven't hooked up the tender in reverse. If it is hooked up correctly, leave it connected for a bit and see what the light shows after an hour or so. You could have a defective tender. Test the tender on your car and see if it behaves ok there.


Mike

THANKS FOR THE PROMPT REPLY, MIKE. I JUST REMEMBERED LAST NIGHT THAT SEVERAL DAYS AGO, WHEN I WAS CLEANING MY GARAGE, THE BATTERY TENDER FELL OFF MY WORKBENCH ONTO CONCRETE FLOOR. 'WASN'T A PARTICULARLY EXTREME BLOW, BUT CERTAINLY COULD BE THE CULPRIT. 'WILL FOLLOWUP. AGAIN, THANKS! SF

 

[steven fox]

No, that is an impossibility. Unless the laws of Physics changed without me knowing it. Please bury that notion immediately.

The starter solenoid is a high current plunger typed switch or contactor. You were simply substituting the plunger action with the pliers to allow the current to flow to the starter motor and cause it to operate.

Most tender chargers use a 2-pin SAE connector with a male and female connector and molded key feature. The only possible way for the polarity to be wrong would be the installation of the cable onto the motorcycle's battery. Please verify your connections and make sure the cable ends are installed onto the correct battery terminals.

THANKS FOR THE REPLY. JUST REMEMBERED LAST NIGHT THAT THE TENDER TOOK WHAT-I-THOUGHT-WAS A MINOR TUMBLE ONTO THE FLOOR SEVERAL DAYS AGO, WHEN I WAS CLEANING OUT MY GARAGE. 'THINKING IT WASN'T SO MINOR AFTER ALL. WILL FOLLOW UP. THANKS AGAIN. SF

 

[steven fox]

Replaced the Battery Tender Junior and ... problem solved. 'Never had one go bad (even after a bump or two), so now I KNOW ! Many thanks for the replies, folks. SF

 

[mikesim]

Glad it was an easy and relatively cheap fix

Mike

 

[silshooter]

My previous issues with starting have always been addressed by using a trickle charger. A well charged battery is important.