Hubris or acceptable risk?

[mikesim]

Not NT or motorcycle related I know but makes for interesting discussion until the weather permits more fun stuff to discuss. I read with interest that a new skyscraper is being planned for of all places, Oklahoma City! It will top out at 1907 feet which will make it the tallest skyscraper in the US and fifth tallest worldwide. It will be part of a larger development called the Legends Towers. The first thing that struck me was that the tower was being located right at ground zero in Tornado Alley. I would assume that all due diligence will be devoted to ensuring that the tower will be designed to withstand any anticipated twister. Tornadoes however are still not well understood aerodynamically speaking and are difficult to model since the stresses are unlike straight line winds. It is this uncertainty that must be accounted for and even if the structural engineers are certain of the safety, what about the public and the insurance industry? I would suspect that it might be difficult to find tenants who are willing to roll the dice and risk the potential danger as well as finding an insurer who is brave enough to accept the risk. Your thoughts?

Mike

 

[DirtFlier]

Except for bragging rights, I see no real value in having a nearly-2000 ft skyscraper in OK City. Will they have tenants for all those floors?

 

[RedLdr1]

LOL here in Atlanta there is so much empty office space you couldn't find tenants unless it was free... The city and Fulton county are trying to figure how to reconfigure office buildings as condos and apartments to ease the housing shortage. The problem is there is not enough electrical, water or sewage infrastructure in an office building to support the amount needed for living spaces.

Atlanta had a F-2, with130MPH sustained winds, go through downtown back in 2008. The Westin Hotel, with seventy three stories, was particularly hard hit which is kind of surprising since it is a circular tower. The Westin was the worst damaged with the World Trade Center, only 5 or 6 stories, being the other badly damaged major building. No high rises collapsed and surprisingly the death and injury toll was very light but the financial costs were significant. See Here for an article on the Westin.

 

[Frosty]

After flying a small airplane among and around the mountains of the West, I moved to Omaha, NE. On a flight in the local area after work and sunset, I was happy not to worry about high terrain so I picked the appropriate VFR altitude and flew randomly about without looking at the chart. It is hard to miss Omaha lights after dark. I was enjoying the evening until I looked up at a light on a tower go by ... RTB (return to base) for fresh underwear. Not saying that a flat land aviator will fly into a building, but who would think flying at 1,500 ft agl in OK would be a problem.

 

[RedNigel]

This building cant be more than a way to generate more tourist traffic into The City to come pay for elevator rides to the observation deck and spend money on their fake, lame riverwalk. OK is so poor I just don't get it

I grew up in OK so I have room to talk

Reba McIntyre, who grew up in podunk, OK opened a diner in old downtown Atoka, OK. A city of 3200, and that diner has generated over 200,000 visitors in one year. If you build it they will come

 

[Yoda]

Our son in law was stationed at Tinker AFB in Oklahoma City about 20 years ago. They had a home in Moore, OK.
We were walking thru the neighborhood one evening and noticed the street light poles were made of reinforced CONCRETE. We finally realized why we had never seen poles like that before - tornadoes!

 

[DirtFlier]

Reba has a real following as a down home gal but the skyscraper has no such advantage.

 

[ARKNT]

As Redldr1 mentioned I have seen recent news articles about the empty office buildings in several places and trying to make them useful again. Since the pandemic so many more people work from home that a building like that and in OK City does not seem all that logical.

Arknt

 

[mikesim]

The OK City tower story brought to mind another engineering triumph. The Tacoma Narrows bridge designed by the architect/engineer to be a sleek beautiful design.... and it was..... and aerodynamic too! During construction the workers noticed that the bridge had an odd habit of swaying in the breeze. Shortly after the bridge was dedicated folks crossing the bridge were taken aback by the sometimes wild gyrations of the bridge deck during a stiff breeze so much so that during those occasions when the bridge was in motion, traffic was not permitted to cross. The engineers quickly discovered that the narrow superstructure of the deck closely resembled a wing and aerodynamic lift was causing the wild gyrations. They quickly set about trying to design a fix for "Galloping Gertie" as it came to be known but sadly the bridge collapsed before the repairs could be affected. Here is the link to the Wikipedia article on the bridge. Be sure to click on the video showing the bridge collapse.

Tacoma Narrows Bridge (1940) - Wikipedia

Interestingly, I was a little shaver when I first saw the bridge collapse on TV. Probably about four or five. For the longest time afterwards, I was petrified everytime we crossed a bridge in the family cars.

Mike

 

[NewTo700V]

it could be the world's tallest tower, OK will always be a "ride thru" state. a couple hours boredom on the way to greater points west or east.

 

[ARKNT]

The OK City tower story brought to mind another engineering triumph.

I've seen that bridge video many times but watching it again it is just amazing those parts could move like that and survive as long as they did.
Roads can "bend" around a curve and even be fun but not like that on a bridge.

Arknt

 

[DirtFlier]

Tall buildings are similar to our affliction with Malls and Super-Malls, most of which have way too many empty spots. And when the latest and greatest mall dies, someone just builds a bigger one down the road and restarts the birth-to-death process again.

 

[mikesim]

Tall buildings are similar to our affliction with Malls and Super-Malls, most of which have way too many empty spots. And when the latest and greatest mall dies, someone just builds a bigger one down the road and restarts the birth-to-death process again.

At least in the St. Louis market, malls are a dead issue. At one time we had well over a dozen large malls throughout the StL metro area, now I can think of only two remaining. They were victims of Amazon and Internet shopping and in the more dicey areas, the mall rats and the accompanying crime caused their demise. The abandoned malls have either been torn down or repurposed for other uses. Interestingly, tall buildings in StL have never been and likely will never be an issue. When the Gateway Arch (630 ft) was built in the sixties an ordinance was enacted that no building in the downtown area near the Arch could be built that exceeds 630ft.

Mike

 

[DirtFlier]

I'd venture a guess that malls are dying all over America because of the reasons you stated. In many ways, the malls were victims of their own greed as tenants found the usually ultra-high rents never came close to offsetting their meager earnings.

 

[junglejim]

I'd venture a guess that malls are dying all over America because of the reasons you stated. In many ways, the malls were victims of their own greed as tenants found the usually ultra-high rents never came close to offsetting their meager earnings.

And tax write offs for the developers.

 

[RedLdr1]

I'd venture a guess that malls are dying all over America because of the reasons you stated. In many ways, the malls were victims of their own greed as tenants found the usually ultra-high rents never came close to offsetting their meager earnings.

I agree with that guess...but here is the weird thing that happened here. The big anchor stores were the first to close, followed by specialty electronics stores and jewelers, but smaller chain stores stayed and in most cases are still in place. It cannot be profitable paying the HVAC and upkeep on a huge mall to keep it open for a low occupancy rate of lower tier stores.

 

[mikesim]

The thing that aggravated me about the malls in St Louis was the policy of tax increment financing. The mall developer approached the municipality/county about tax abatement (read subsidy) to help offset the cost of the mall. This was only permissible if the mall was located in a blighted area. No problem sez the municipality/county, we will declare that patch of land as blighted and go ahead with our tax abatement give away. Sooooo.... many of the malls in some very affluent areas of St. Louis were occupying "blighted" land and saving a ton of money on tax abatement. Poor old Joe's Conoco across the street got no tax abatement whatsoever.

Mike

 

[Fieroguy]

Our mall has become less about shopping and more about family entertainment. A significant portion of the mall was turned into venues for video games, bowling, pool, Karaoke and they even serve beer/wine. The old Sears has become a multi-level facility for rock climbing, trampoline and several other physical activities. They may even have a indoor zip line there, IIRC. Of course the movie theater is still there and several restaurants. Once JC Penney's leaves, as it appears they are on their way out, that will only leave Macy's as an anchor store. I don't go there often, but when I do, I'm always surprised at the turnover in small 'Mom and Pop' stores that seem to come and go.

 

[wphillips007]

Tomorrow I'm headed off to Asia for 3 weeks - its an around the world trip - from Orlando to Doha, on to Bangkok and then to Manila and back to Orlando, The reason I mention that is that the malls in Bangkok are so fantastic and futuristic and it just boggles the imagination. My son and his family live in Bangkok 3 months every year so I go over to visit them most every year. The malls there are clean, incredible and jammed with people. One of my favorites in "Terminal 21" where every floor is themed to represent a different city around the world, ie: Paris, Istanbul, London, San Francisco, Tokyo, etc - Its incredible. Even the restroom on each floor are themed to have the fixtures of that city. And did I mention that Bangkok is a very cheap place to live and the people are very polite.
Wendell

 

[Phil Tarman]

Have a great trip, Wendell!