Is It Happening Again?

[Phil Tarman]

I had a new rear tire mounted yesterday at Interstate Honda in Fort Collins. I stuck my head through into the shop area and reminded the tech to put Honda Moly-60 on the final drive splines.

When I was paying for the tire R&R, the service manager told me that the splines had been DRY!!!

Since the last time the drive was open was when Sun Honda in Denver had spent $1500 of Honda's money rebuilding the final drive after Streight Honda of Gainesville, FL's guy had not used Honda Moly-60 when he replaced my rear tire in August of '13, while I was on the Epic Ride, I was more than a little surprised and wish that the service manager had called me back to show me the dry splines before they remounted the rear wheel.

He said he was going to talk to Honda and see "what they wanted to do." I'm hoping that they'll feel like spending another chunk of money before my extended warranty expires at the end of March.

BTW, Chuck, I would have called you and tried to coordinate our schedules so I could have seen you and maybe met guitarman, but I'm working some again and my schedule's gotten complicated for the next couple of weeks.

 

[Gabe]

Wait, what? Is this something to watch out for with NTs? How often should they be checked? I'm taking mine in this coming weekend for it's first major service change and some parts work. Going to have metal valve stems put in, and I'm thinking of having them check the splines out just in case.

 

[EX Winger]

Phil, I hope I am wrong, but ti sounds like you are being set up for failior by some slopy techs's very suprising that y our sun Honda guy has let you down! I hope they get you squared away< once that warranty is gone I think I would have to talk very nicely with the best and most dedicated Hinda tech in the greater Denver area!!!! WE know of whom we speak , Right!!, Maybe a harbor freight lift in in your future???

Eldon

 

[junglejim]

Where could it go? Every time I've looked at mine it still had black paste on it from last time and I just added a new little smear without cleaning any off. The only thing I can think of is that possibly at the re-build there was some oil or solvent on the parts that prevented the moly from sticking. I KNOW it sticks to my fingers real well.

Let us know how this turns out. (I probably didn't need to say that, did I)

 

[bicyclist]

Is this something to watch out for with NTs? How often should they be checked?

The splines should be checked every time you put on a new tire and should be dabbed with a smear of Honda Moly 60. It's not a bad idea to pull the driven flange and put a dab of moly on the thrust washer and collar. If you're really anal, you might want to replace the o-rings. The wheel bearings should also be checked. It takes a lot more time to get the wheel off and on than it does to do the simple checks, so they might as well be done while the wheel is off.

 

[seagrass]

I think the biggest problem is that chain/belt drive bikes make up probably 95% of the market and many tech's seldom work on a shaft drive (unless they are BMW or Moto Guzzi tech's of course)

Because of this it is VERY easy to forget about applying the Moly paste.

The Moly certainly does not disappear as I have been servicing my shaft drive bikes and also a friends shaft drive bike for some years and several tyre changes and each time I remove the rear wheel the Moly is still there (and replaced each tyre change)

 

[Phil Tarman]

I know it doesn't go away. I also know that my tech at Sun Honda, who has worked on my bike for the better part of 96,000 miles, rebuilt the final drive (on Honda's nickel) back in March of '14. The rear wheel hasn't been off the bike since then until yesterday. I really can't believe that Nic, my tech at Sun, would have rebuilt the final drive and not lubed it. I'm going to call Sun and talk to their service manager and see what he says. I don't know if I'll ever go back to Interstate Honda.

 

[seagrass]

Phil maybe Nic left the fitting of the rear wheel to another (maybe even more junior) employee who either did not know it had to be done or was too busy with other things and simply forgot to do it.

Let us know what you find out from them.

 

[JQL]

Phil maybe Nic left the fitting of the rear wheel to another (maybe even more junior) employee who either did not know it had to be done or was too busy with other things and simply forgot to do it.

Let us know what you find out from them.

+1

it's usually a different person at my dealer's who fits the tyres to my usual mechanic. They fit so many tyres that they employ a person just to do that!

 

[Woodaddict]

Phil, to put your mind a little at ease........your not flirting with disaster, your flirting with a little more wear by not having the moly. how the splines act are " a quick release type" that allow the rim to be pulled away fast. if no moly paste or too less is used only allows more wear to occur on the straight splines. it will not affect your final drive assembly. that meshing of the external splines on the rim hub and the internal splines on the final drive are a "static type" of straight spline that only transfers power to the rim/wheel. both turn together, but have more clearance for quick disassembly. also this area is not a total water free area. the rubber o rings help keep it dry, but there is a rectangle cut-out or drain in the plastic ring on the final drive that allows any water to drain out. the 3 O-rings in that area are also static, they do not slide against anything to wear. I only replaced them at 92,000 when I replaced the rim splined hub, rubber cushion with aluminum inserts. the straight splines were wearing and the 5 studs with the cushions/ alum system all had a lot of wear.
I also had to replace my rear rim. when I went to replace my hub that slides into the wheel, I seen wear on rim casting right where the " thin thrust washer" about .050 in thickness lays. the rear bearing was sticking out from rim hub about .100, almost 1/8, meaning the rim casting had worn away. the bearing seemed ok, just that thrust washer had somehow worn away the rim casting. also the thrust bushing, a big chamfer looking solid piece, had burn marks and wear. so something was binding and wearing away the aluminum. this is all inside of straight spline hub as you pull it from rim, to look inside. reference the service manual for fitment or look online at some parts diagrams to see what it looks like. all of this has not affected my final drive yet, no noise or anything.

 

[Woodaddict]

to continue.... I will keep the rim and could have it alum welded and re-machine at no cost to me. I'm a machinist, just didn't know for sure where rim flange and bearing met. its real close to even. but a new rear rim with bearings installed and air stem was only $254

 

[charlie b]

A Honda tech should be way more familiar with final drive splines than most tech's. This does seem strange.

I also wonder about how 'dry' it was. Did they clean all the grease off the wheel and then not lube it? It really does not take much lube to start with so is it just one tech saying there is not as much as what he would put on there? I have changed tires and not put on additional lube or cleaned off the old with no issues.

Or, is your final drive heating up a bit and causing the grease to weep away? I don't remember if yours was rebuilt or replaced. If rebuilt then is something wrong with the drive?

 

[RedLdr1]

Or, is your final drive heating up a bit and causing the grease to weep away?

+1 A slight misalignment of the drive shaft causing excess heat to be generated could "melt" the grease away. I would expect to see some residue on the rear wheel though if that were the case.

 

[bicyclist]

I'll echo David (Woodaddict) and say that you're probably fine. As he says, they're straight splines and shouldn't have worn much in the time since the final drive was repaired. If the splines were, indeed, completely dry, I'd expect to see some rust in there. I'd recommend having a good look at it yourself rather than relying on what someone tells you. Either have Sun pull the wheel and show it to you or ask Chuck to give you a hand. I'm sure he's as curious to see it as any of us.

 

[Phil Tarman]

OK. It's probably not happening again. I had lunch with Chuck Henderson and Gary Nowlen (Guitarman on the Forum) today. I noticed as I rode down to Front Range Airport that my front tire pressure went up about 2psi, but the rear pressure went up 8psi (nearly 20%). Gary had to head home after we ate and I decided I'd go to Sun Honda and tell them what Interstate Honda had said about the final drive.

I had to eat a little crow fed to me by Billy, Sun's Service Manager. He reminded me of all that they had done and that everything I'd had done had been covered by warranty except for normal maintenance. Why, he wanted to know, had I gone somewhere else. My only excuse was that, for the electrical problem, I was pretty sure the bike wouldn't run for 60 miles to get me to Sun. As it turned out, it didn't run the 25 miles I needed it to to get me to Interstate either. For the tire, it had come at noon on Monday and the weather was going to turn bad for a week on Monday night, so I went to where I knew I could get the tire mounted and get home before the weather changed. Billy pointed out that I might have messed up and I begged his forgiveness.

It turned out that my long-time mechanic, Nic, is no longer at Sun -- Rich, the other guy who's worked on my bike told me that Nic had "kind of gone downhill" and either got canned or quit just before he got canned.

Rich pulled the final drive unit while leaving the wheel semi-attached to the bike. When he cleaned up the splines, they weren't rusty and showed only normal signs of wear. But the thrust bushing that Woodaddict mentioned, was not fitting right and the wheel had really been cranked up tight to the bearings, so that when you tried to spin it, it stopped pretty quick. Rich said the wheel had been hot when he touched it. The bearings were rough-feeling, so we replaced the bearings and seals. The thrust bushing wasn't in stock, so they ordered it and I'll go back when it comes in.

I'll pay for the bearings and the seals -- they're wear items -- and Honda will pay for the labor and the thrust bushing.

I won't go back to Interstate Honda.

One interesting thing about my visit at Sun was that they've got a new service writer (he's only been there since last Saturday). When I walked in, he said, "Wow! You've got an NT700V! What great bikes." He had ridden a VFR800 for several years but had traded it in on a Buell RX1190SX. It was an impressive-looking machine -- even if it isn't anything this old man would ever ride!

Speaking of impressive-looking machines, there was an awesome-looking lineup at Front Range Airport at noon: a high-mileage NT700VA, a very good-looking ST700VA, and a beautiful deep-bright-red FJR1300. Pilots taxiing by nearly broke their necks staring in amazement and appreciation.

 

[EX Winger]

Glad to hear you are back with the old dealerMaybe a little farther to go , but sounds like it is well worth the trip to me. You strayed and got bit and had crow fo dinner, but it sounds as though you have been forgiven!

eldon

 

[Phil Tarman]

Last week when I got my new rear tire mounted at Interstate Honda, you may remember that they told me that my relatively new final drive had dry, rusty, damaged splines. On Friday after I ate lunch with Chuck and Gary (Chucksklrst and Guitarman on the Forum) I went to Sun Honda, who had rebuilt the final drive last spring after Chuck and I had found dry splines (courtesy of Streight Honda in Gainesville, FL).

The splines had been slathered in Honda Moly at Interstate, but after they were cleaned, we saw no evidence of rust or damage. A thrust collar/spacer was badly damaged, and my rear wheel bearings were rough. The mechanic at Sun replaced the bearings and seals and Sun ordered the spacer. They'll put it in later this week or next, as soon as they get it.

On the work order from Interstate, below the line where they described the alleged damage to the final drive, there was another line that said, "Heat shield loose." I assumed that it had been loose before they tightened it up.

But I noticed once on Friday that I heard a "clank" from somewhere but didn't hear it again and forgot about it.

Today, I finally couldn't stand the crud on the bike that's been there since last summer. I don't think I've washed it since before I went on the Three Flags Classic ride on Labor Day weekend. Yuck!!

As I was washing the bike, I noticed that the heat shield was still loose. I leaned over and looked and right away noticed that there wasn't a bolt holding the front of the heat shield in place.

So, I rode up to Interstate and the service manager said, "Hi, guy! What can I do for you?" I told him that when I had seen the note about the heat shield being loose, I just assumed that it had been loose when I brought it in and that they had fixed it. I hadn't even thought that they had sent me down the road with it still loose. He said, "Well, our mechanic did the best he could."

I said, "Oh, I don't think he did. Come take a look," and he followed me outside and I showed him where a hex-head bolt could entirely fixe my problem. I told him that I would have fixed it myself but I didn't have a bolt. He went in and got the mechanic and they came out and looked at the hole. Then they started talking about how long the bolt needed to be and went back inside. I stood outside in the wind and waited until the mechanic came back with the bolt. I told him I was capable of fixing it if he just wanted to give me the bolt. He said, "I'll get it." And he did.

Guess how many times i'll be going back to Interstate Honda!

 

[JohnC]

I think one of the problems we have is regular riders mostly putt around the neighborhood or go on an occasional weekend trip. Sports touring riders tend to put a lot of miles in a lot of places on their bikes. And the ST's generally have components buried under a lot of tupperware. Modern ST's also tend to be very reliable, but servicing takes more attention to detail and that takes more time. And Time = $.

I recommend a service manual even if you do no plan on doing any work on your bike.

 

[charlie b]

Well, I would recommend you start working on the bike yourself. But, I am also one who likes working on stuff. I like the idea that if something goes wrong I can either fix it on the spot, or, I can order a part myself and fix it on my time frame (yes, even in a motel parking lot or campground).

If you are one who lets the dealer do all the work then this kind of stuff is going to happen, no matter who you take it to.

 

[Chucksklrst]

One can outfit the garage with the basics for working one's bike for less than 1000 dollars. Harbor Freight Lift $325.00 with coupon. http://www.harborfreight.com/1000-lb-capacity-motorcycle-lift-68892-8495.html


Basic Cycle Hill tire changer $395.00 http://www.nomartirechanger.com/Cycle_Hill_Tire_Changer_p/tc-cycle hill standard.htm

and a set of basic metric hand tools from Sears for $250.00 http://www.sears.com/craftsman-283-pc-mechanics-tool-set-with-tool/p-00935283000P?sid=IDx01192011x000001&kpid=00935283000&kispla=00935283000P&kpid=00935283000&mktRedirect=y

Plus the bikes service manual for about 60 bucks.

This is a good Start and as one learns and does more of their own repairs/maintenance, buy the extra tools that you need as you go along. If one looks hard enough the lift and the tire changer can be bought used. That is how I got my tire changer. Then host a maint clinic at your place and the learning and fun begins.

You will find aside from the Dollar savings that you will gain the enjoyment and pride/satisfactions of doing your own work. Wrench Turning can be fun.


Edit: I forgot you will need a compressor also. Harbor freight has some decent ones http://www.harborfreight.com/air-tools/air-compressors/2-horsepower-6-gallon-150-psi-oilless-pancake-compressor-67696.html

Also maybe a garage heater. :wink: