New owner: clutch slipping today

[Tuchango]

All,
2010 w/ 19.2k miles.

Commute in was fine.

Commute home: If I rotated the throttle any more than the minimum, revs climbed and speed gently increased or remained constant. Happened in 3 of the 5 gears. Didn’t try the other two.

I looked through mx posts and saw one rider had a bad clutch cable.

Thoughts on this?

Thanks,

 

[ARKNT]

NT clutch is generally pretty solid.
1st I would verify that you have some free play at the clutch lever. Next verify the cable is not dragging by checking proper movement and looseness down on the engine.
Doesn't always cause problems but are you using proper oil for wet clutches? (JASO MA)

Arknt

 

[Tuchango]

Ok I’ll check what you mentioned.

no idea on the fluid. I bought it used and been riding it since August with no issues.

I know there’s a service due at 20k as well. Was planning to take it to a shop for that…maybe.

 

[DirtFlier]

Try changing the engine oil to Shell Rotella (dinosaur juice), 15w-40 and also change the filter. I've used Rotella for eons without a problem and never saw a reason to try synthetic so I go with the cheaper stuff.

 

[cliffh]

I agree on the Rotella being very good choice, however, in my 58 years of riding I have used synthetic many times with no ill effects. Seriously doubt the oil would cause your problem.

I had the bad clutch cable at about 22,000 miles on a bike I purchased used. This has happened on 3 or 4 of the bikes I have had over the years. The cable gets water inside and eventually rust starts to form binding the cable. When that happens, "some" of the clutch pull you get is merely compressing the cable sheath and not working the clutch completely.

So, make sure you have some free play at the clutch hand lever, then also make sure you have some free play in the cable where it pulls the clutch lever on the engine. There should be a little "jiggle" left in the cable. If there isn't, the cable is not fully releasing the clutch even though there is free play at the handle bar lever.

Good luck. On the bright side, Honda clutches are extremely reliable and I'd say unheard of at your mileage.

Cliff

 

[mikesim]

Oil can cause the problem you are experiencing, IF, it is oil designed for energy conservation. If the oil is labeled for JASO MA or MA2 spec you are good to go. If it is not labeled MA or MA2 AND it is labeled with the "energy conserving" starburst symbol it can cause clutch slippage. The energy conserving oils have extra friction modifiers (molybdenum, graphite... etc) built in to the additive package and these friction modifiers do not play well with wet clutches. The Rotella that Dirt Flier mentioned is a good, safe choice for your bike.

Mike

 

[ARKNT]

To help prevent water getting in the cable and rusting/causing issues I like to add a boot up at the clutch lever.
I have used one from a Kawasaki KLX 250 on a couple of my bikes. Think the part number is 49006-1017 for the cover.

Arknt

 

[cliffh]

Oil can cause the problem you are experiencing, IF, it is oil designed for energy conservation. If the oil is labeled for JASO MA or MA2 spec you are good to go. If it is not labeled MA or MA2 AND it is labeled with the "energy conserving" starburst symbol it can cause clutch slippage. The energy conserving oils have extra friction modifiers (molybdenum, graphite... etc) built in to the additive package and these friction modifiers do not play well with wet clutches. The Rotella that Dirt Flier mentioned is a good, safe choice for your bike.

Mike

Hi Mike. I'm not trying to cause any problems here, so don't take this wrong. I know that all the bike manufacturers warn against oils marked " energy conserving" and I certainly won't say that they would never cause a problem if used, BUT, I've used them for a couple hundred thousand miles on my other bikes and never had any issues with clutch slipping due to the oil. The only slippage I've ever encountered was caused by binding clutch cables. I also have never heard of anyone else having a problem using them. I'm just wondering if you have heard of any actual problems?
I have been using Rotella for a couple years now and agree that it is a great choice and a good recommendation.
Cliff

 

[mikesim]

Yes Cliff, over the years I have seen a handful of folks that have had issues with energy conserving oils. They are usually the type of riders who stress their bikes more so than the casual street rider, typically dirt bike, atv or crotch rocket types. In reading your previous posts, I think there may be some confusion. You stated that you have been using "synthetics" for years with no Ill effects. You also state that you have been using Rotella for several years with success.
The "energy conserving" oils that I am referring to may or may not be synthetic oils. Merely by virtue of being synthetic, does not make them "energy conserving". In fact Rotella T6 in the blue jug is synthetic and is also rated as a JASO MA MA2 which makes it acceptable for use in wet clutch bikes. Mobil 1, Castrol and Valvoline synthetics for wet clutch bikes all carry the JASO MA MA2 designation.
The "energy conserving" label is something fairly new in the last ten or so years. It is specifically denoted by a circular starburst symbol with the words energy conserving around the perimeter of the symbol. It's purpose by the API is to denote those oils (synthetic or otherwise) that have an additive package that contains lubricity enhancing ingredients specifically to promote fuel economy.
I hope this clarifies the previous discussion.

Here is a link to a PDF by the API (American Petroleum Institute that should help everyone understand the symbols and what they mean...

https://www.api.org/~/media/files/oil-and-natural-gas/engine%20oil/motor_oil_guide_2010_120210.pdf?la=en

Mike

 

[Hondafan]

In the section on engine oil in the owners manual they state......do not use oil that is designated energy conserving.

 

[Reniram]

The handbook for the wife's 650 BMW specifically says Do Not Use Synthetic Oil ..... but I used Mobil one in my NT with 36000 miles and no problems so the Clutch adjustment or the cable would be the first thing I would check

 

[mikesim]

The handbook for the wife's 650 BMW specifically says Do Not Use Synthetic Oil ..... but I used Mobil one in my NT with 36000 miles and no problems so the Clutch adjustment or the cable would be the first thing I would check

I'm not all all familiar with why BMW cautions against using synthetic oil. That would be a good question for a BMW forum and if you find out, post the reasoning here.... I'm curious. I do know that some manufacturers don't recommend synthetics be used during the break-in period as the increased lubricity prolongs the break in period.

Mike

 

[ST1100Y]

2010 w/ 19.2k miles.

As you'd opened with [new owner] you've bough it used, which leaves two options:
- clutch abused by PO, wear starting to show now
- an oil change been done recently

wet clutches ought to be operated with the same oil type they've been run since installation/their saturated with...
Changing from dino to synth (or vice versa) will result in issues like slipping or not fully separating...

First I'd see to investigate which oil was used previously and change back to this brand/specs, likely this already cures the symptoms...

 

[DirtFlier]

"....To help prevent water getting in the cable and rusting/causing issues I like to add a boot up at the clutch lever...ARKNT"

Do you often wash your bike with a power washer?

I only ask because wash my bike using a normal hose and have never had trouble with the cable rusting inside. I keep water away from vulnerable areas, such as the cable ends, steering bearings, etc.

 

[ARKNT]

I don't power wash mine, I really don't wash it very often at all. It is stored inside so it has a good life.
I haven't had cable issues in several years.
The clutch cable boot is more of a "feel good" prevention. It can't hurt, is easy, and inexpensive. So my head says why not?

Arknt

 

[cliffh]

I have used my bikes for long distance touring. When I leave on a trip, it is a given that I will be riding in rain at least some of the time.

Look fellows, oil threads never go anywhere.....so.....

Also, since the checking of the clutch cable is BY FAR the easiest, not to mention free, just check for some free play at the lever on the handlebars AND the cable where it attaches to the engine. If the cable is tight on either end, you can have a slipping clutch because the clutch lever on the engine is not releasing all the way.
Clutch cables can rust, get dirt inside, or many other reasons and cause binding and failure to release completely. I ALWAYS check the easy/free possibilities first.

Cliff

 

[Tuchango]

"....To help prevent water getting in the cable and rusting/causing issues I like to add a boot up at the clutch lever...ARKNT"

Do you often wash your bike with a power washer?

I only ask because wash my bike using a normal hose and have never had trouble with the cable rusting inside. I keep water away from vulnerable areas, such as the cable ends, steering bearings, etc.

Good news is I haven’t used more than a cloth rag yet, to wash it.
As mentioned above though: who knows what the previous two owners did.

thanks,

 

[Tuchango]

I have used my bikes for long distance touring. When I leave on a trip, it is a given that I will be riding in rain at least some of the time.

Look fellows, oil threads never go anywhere.....so.....

Also, since the checking of the clutch cable is BY FAR the easiest, not to mention free, just check for some free play at the lever on the handlebars AND the cable where it attaches to the engine. If the cable is tight on either end, you can have a slipping clutch because the clutch lever on the engine is not releasing all the way.
Clutch cables can rust, get dirt inside, or many other reasons and cause binding and failure to release completely. I ALWAYS check the easy/free possibilities first.

Cliff

I don’t have a baseline for free play. The engagement zone on the clutch lever is very nearly full forward, rather than the middle of the clutch lever range of motion.

I’ll take a look again tomorrow.

 

[DirtFlier]

The freeplay measured at the ball end of the clutch lever should be around 10-20 mm.

 

[cliffh]

The freeplay measured at the ball end of the clutch lever should be around 10-20 mm.

You are absolutely correct about the free play at the ball end of the clutch lever, however, if the clutch cable is binding, you may not have any free play at the engine end of the cable. You absolutely must have the clutch lever on the engine completely released and not being held by a tight cable. The cable itself, not the sheath, where it attaches to the clutch lever on the engine must be just a little loose indicating the lever to free to release completely. If this lever is not free to fully release, it is exactly the same not completely releasing the clutch lever on the handle bars. This can and will cause clutch slippage.

Cliff