NT 700 Final Drive Failure?

[tawilke46]

Read an interesting letter in the April issue of Motorcycle Consumer News.
Seems this gentleman was riding his NT on a rural road at about 35mph when a bad vibration started, followed by loud rumbling noises from the rear drive area.
Bike was picked up by a Honda dealer. Upon inspection the dealer found the rear ring gear pinion bearing had failed, sending metal pieces into the ring gear. Estimated cost of repair was $1,300 to $1,400. His oil was at the proper level when failure occurred.
Dealer contacted Honda, who admitted it should not have happened, but the bike was out of warranty and they could offer no help, final answer.
Could there be a number of NT's out there that have bad pinion bearings?
I may keep a close watch on the rear end oil for signs of trouble.......bad color, smell, metal shavings, etc.

 

[Chucksklrst]

Read an interesting letter in the April issue of Motorcycle Consumer News.
Seems this gentleman was riding his NT on a rural road at about 35mph when a bad vibration started, followed by loud rumbling noises from the rear drive area.
Bike was picked up by a Honda dealer. Upon inspection the dealer found the rear ring gear pinion bearing had failed, sending metal pieces into the ring gear. Estimated cost of repair was $1,300 to $1,400. His oil was at the proper level when failure occurred.
Dealer contacted Honda, who admitted it should not have happened, but the bike was out of warranty and they could offer no help, final answer.
Could there be a number of NT's out there that have bad pinion bearings?
I may keep a close watch on the rear end oil for signs of trouble.......bad color, smell, metal shavings, etc.

Even tho it is not necessary I change my final drive oil every motor oil change, just for that reason. So I can take a look at it to see if there is any problem developing.

I also have been using Valvoline synthetic gear oil in the final drive. Takes about 10 extra min to do.

 

[rc_heli_nut]

Chucksklrst, does using synthetic cut down on the final drive "coast-down" noise at all? My 2010 is relatively new (2600 miles), and to me the noise is somewhat annoying. Anybody else notice this? I recently checked the level/condition of the fluid, it's OK.

Brad

 

[Bear]

Tim,
I had a final drive meltdown as well. Mine started with oil spattering on the rim, then a rumbling noise. I got mine into the Honda dealer and they replaced all the O rings, seals, and bearings under warranty. A bearing was the culprit. The shaft was replaced just to make certain the bearing would not fail again. The dealer thought that this problem was quite rare since the NT drivetrain has been around for a long time.

 

[charlie b]

LOL, I don't think so.

Some of the newer Guzzi's had the same kind of problem. Seems they went to a new supplier (Polish or Czech). for bearings for a little while. Turned out they were pure s***. After a few failures they went back to good bearings (German?). Luckily (?) Guzzi doesn't make very many bikes so those with suspect bikes could get them checked.

Despite how good the supplier you do get bad bearings every now and then. Don't like to hear about it but it does happen.

 

[skiper]

Maybe the final drives should be kosher or sumthin.. Couldn't hurt..

 

[Bear]

Just because a company has built a great reputation for quality does not mean that the company can rest on its laurels. Quality is an ongoing process that needs constant attention. My racing bicycles have a long string of victories, but I have to stay on top of the latest technology lest I be left behind. At least one of my bikes have finished podium since 2007. I plan to repeat that in 2013. Striving for excellence can be expensive, Fortunately I have no stockholders I have to keep happy with dividents. I am not making excuses for BMW, but they have stockholders who want the money. The company has to cut corners someplace to make their greedy stockholders happy. The pride one has had from a marque is gone.

 

[Phil Tarman]

I (vaguely) remember being told by Bob Higdon that was why he ended up with his first NT700. Did you also get that rant Phil?

LOL! Oh, year, Bob, I got it in long and exquisite detail, the way you get most things from Higdon.

And Sam, a friend of mine had a 91 R100G/S that had a final drive failure at only 37,000 miles. He said it wasn't rare any time from the early 90s on, but BMW doesn't admit it, so it's "not a problem." At least not for BMW.

Same friend, BTW, had ridden a DR650 to Alaska, and after getting there his high-dollar Hidenau tires weren't going to make it back to Colorado. He went into a shop in Anchorage to buy new tires and ended up trading his DR650 for a KTM Super Duke.

Must be nice to have money....

And long enough legs to ride a Super Duke.

 

[mikesim]

Just because a company has built a great reputation for quality does not mean that the company can rest on its laurels. Quality is an ongoing process that needs constant attention. My racing bicycles have a long string of victories, but I have to stay on top of the latest technology lest I be left behind. At least one of my bikes have finished podium since 2007. I plan to repeat that in 2013. Striving for excellence can be expensive, Fortunately I have no stockholders I have to keep happy with dividents. I am not making excuses for BMW, but they have stockholders who want the money. The company has to cut corners someplace to make their greedy stockholders happy. The pride one has had from a marque is gone.

Alex, I think we should be very careful when we attribute problems to "greedy" stockholders. Actually, IMHO, we should be very careful to attribute "greed" to many our of societal problems. For example, if you have a sum of money that you wish to invest, and you have a choice between Bank A which pays a 3% return, or Bank B which pays a 5% return, which do you choose? Logically, if you wish to maximize your investment, you would, of course, choose Bank B, but does making that choice make you "greedy"? Of course not.

The problem with the BMW final drive as I see it is that at some point in time BMW made either a bad design decision and that their final drive is poorly engineered, or, they made a bad decision in the selection of a vendor who provides parts that fail prematurely or perhaps a combination of the above. In any event, the proper bsuiness decision would be to acknowledge the problem, find a solution and make sure that your customers are taken care of. In acknowledging the problem, BMW should recognize that they have a moral obligation to their customers to "make it right".

Our capitalistic system is by no means perfect, but the quest for profits is what drives us as a society to create better "stuff" and also to take better care of our customers.

Mike
(climbing down from my soapbox)

 

[Chucksklrst]

Chucksklrst, does using synthetic cut down on the final drive "coast-down" noise at all? My 2010 is relatively new (2600 miles), and to me the noise is somewhat annoying. Anybody else notice this? I recently checked the level/condition of the fluid, it's OK.

Brad

I think some of your noise will disapate with break in. I wear ear plugs and listen to music when I ride, so I don't hear any FD noise. Don't know about if the synthetic lesses the noise. It is just a habit I got into over all the years I have owned shaft drive bikes.Try it as see what kind of results you get.

 

[charlie b]

Mike,

You are correct. In our business we always try to do right and admit mistakes because it means more customers, not fewer.

Some of our most loyal customers were ones who I refused to sell goods too because I did not feel they would be happy with our products. They decided to buy anyway and have been loyal to us ever since.

Home Depot almost went out of business forgetting some of that. They tried to make more profit by cutting staff and staff benefits. They finally recognized their mistake and are now ok, but, it was close.

Beemer is now in that boat. Their reputation and snob appeal will carry them for a little while. Will have to wait and see if that is sufficient or if they make another blunder. But, Beemer has always been known to brush problems under the rug.

 

[mikesim]

Mike,

You are correct. In our business we always try to do right and admit mistakes because it means more customers, not fewer.

Some of our most loyal customers were ones who I refused to sell goods too because I did not feel they would be happy with our products. They decided to buy anyway and have been loyal to us ever since.

Home Depot almost went out of business forgetting some of that. They tried to make more profit by cutting staff and staff benefits. They finally recognized their mistake and are now ok, but, it was close.

Beemer is now in that boat. Their reputation and snob appeal will carry them for a little while. Will have to wait and see if that is sufficient or if they make another blunder. But, Beemer has always been known to brush problems under the rug.

It's been my experience that problems "brushed under the rug" seldom stay there. It goes against our grain as humans to admit we made a mistake, but it is the best approach. When you make a mistake in business, folks won't be happy about it (who would?) but if you own up to it immediately, take responsibility and correct the problem, your customers will respect that. Most of them will realize that mistakes will occur, and your actions demonstrate that you are honest, forthright and are will to correct any problems if they occur. This sort of approach, IMHO, only reinforces in the customers mind that your business is a good one to place confidence in. You would think that the folks at BMW would have realized that, and one day, they will.

Mike

 

[Bear]

Mike,
I agree with you and your comparison with Bank A at 3% and Bank B at 5% is a good one. Substitute Corporation for Bank and then look at the overall progress A makes vs. B. Sometimes a steady 3% is better than a volatile 5%. Vetting the corporation does not hurt -- gives you a feeling as to its management style.

We had MBNA here in Belfast and it was a great company. The CEO also founded the company whose claim to fame was the Designer Credit Card. You could get a card with your University, favorite Ball Club, H-D Motorcycles, etc. The company whose logo you chose earns dividents.

Well the CEO was very community minded and did things like give a Mustang to the American Lung Association to raffle off at the annual Trek Across Maine--a huge 3 day 200mi Charity Ride. He did other similar things. MBNA Stock showed steady growth and was a really good stock to own.

The MBNA Board of directors met and decided to fire the CEO because he was too extravegant. Soon afterward, MBNA experienced a downward spiral and the BOD decided to sell the company to Bank of America. Bank of America stock has yet to approach the dividents MBNA used to pay. I know this from personal experience because I know the CEO and have owned a fair number of shares in MBNA.

I have seen this pattern repeated in several corporations. I guess that I should not have used the term "greed"-- then again, I have difficulty finding a term for what many--excluding me find to be good business. I am quite ignorant when it comes to the Stock Market because I cannot seem to find logic there.

 

[charlie b]

Logical stock market is an oxymoron.

Wife used to work at Merrill Lynch. Seeing the brokers there work has made me realize why the stock market is fiction, propped up by a bunch of idiots moving money around. Think of them as the lazy classmates you had who wanted to make a million without working. They use other people's money, swish it around a bit and then take a hunk of it for themselves. It has nothing to do with anything going on in the world. Kinda like a couple million people playing Texas Hold Em with borrowed (ie, your) money.

 

[mikesim]

Mike,
I agree with you and your comparison with Bank A at 3% and Bank B at 5% is a good one. Substitute Corporation for Bank and then look at the overall progress A makes vs. B. Sometimes a steady 3% is better than a volatile 5%. Vetting the corporation does not hurt -- gives you a feeling as to its management style.

We had MBNA here in Belfast and it was a great company. The CEO also founded the company whose claim to fame was the Designer Credit Card. You could get a card with your University, favorite Ball Club, H-D Motorcycles, etc. The company whose logo you chose earns dividents.

Well the CEO was very community minded and did things like give a Mustang to the American Lung Association to raffle off at the annual Trek Across Maine--a huge 3 day 200mi Charity Ride. He did other similar things. MBNA Stock showed steady growth and was a really good stock to own.

The MBNA Board of directors met and decided to fire the CEO because he was too extravegant. Soon afterward, MBNA experienced a downward spiral and the BOD decided to sell the company to Bank of America. Bank of America stock has yet to approach the dividents MBNA used to pay. I know this from personal experience because I know the CEO and have owned a fair number of shares in MBNA.

I have seen this pattern repeated in several corporations. I guess that I should not have used the term "greed"-- then again, I have difficulty finding a term for what many--excluding me find to be good business. I am quite ignorant when it comes to the Stock Market because I cannot seem to find logic there.

He...he... he.... trying to find logic in the stock market is a fool's errand! I also agree with your comparison with MBNA vs Bank of America, although at one time, long ago, Bank of America was a good corporate citizen. I think what it all boils down to is that too many companies only think short-term and neglect to see what their impact their short-term decisions will have on their long-term performance. Let's look at BMW as a case study. If BMW would step up to the plate and do the right thing with respect to their final drive failures, it would have a significant negative effect on their short-term bottom line. This apparently is the course they have chosen to take, since I have not heard otherwise. What they have failed to recognize in that by "protecting" their short-term bottom line, they have embittered many of their formally loyal customers who (if they were smart) would never buy another BMW product again. Additionally, the news of final drive failures and poor customer service spreads like wildfire as evidenced by us discussing BMW woes in a Honda forum. This will likely cause many prospective BMW customers to think twice before spending their money with the firm. The above action will most certainly have a much more profound effect on BMW's long-term bottom line then they can ever imagine. The losses that they would incur by doing the right thing with the final drive failures would be immediate and miniscule in comparison with the long-term losses they will experience for years to come.

Mike

 

[DirtFlier]

[... trying to find logic in the stock market is a fool's errand!...Mike]

The truly sad part is that the stock market makes money by moving paper (now done electronically, thousands of shares at a time) from place-to-place and it has nothing to do with the wealth of our country, how many people are employed, a company's prospectus, etc.

To get back on topic, several years ago there was a 1200GS that reduced wet weight by an astounding 20-25 kilograms over the previous year model. I was astounded when it was introduced because looking at a GS, there really isn't much to eliminate or lighten so the changes all had to be internal with smaller, lighter parts. We are now seeing the long-term effects of such weight savings.

In closing, I know plenty of BMW riders who are faithful in spite of multiple incidents with bike breakdowns that proved unfixable by dealers.

 

[Rich]

Well, this thread has drifted off in a couple of different directions, so I thought I'd continue the drift with a negative generalization of my own

In reference to the reported problems with BMWs, it's been my experience that if you have a problem with a product from a German manufacturer (realware or software), any problems you may experience with said product are a product of your own unworthiness. So sayeth the purveyor of said product

 

[Bear]

Mike's take on the company's shortsightedness and Rich's assessment of BMW's arrogance makes me sad. For a lot of us older riders BMW, NSU, and Zundapp represented the epitome of quality. Now BMW is the only one left and the "Coconut Telegraph" will ultimately cause them a lot of damage.

 

[charlie b]

If you mean their own failure to support their customers, and that the customers actually talk to each other, then yep it will do them damage.

Already has. Guzzi for one has picked up quite a few sales from former beemer owners. I would not doubt that some moved to GW or HD products too.

But, beemer won't go away. They'll just keep on going and rely on their snob appeal to bring people into the fold. Just like their car lines. They can make a dud, ignore it for a few years, and let people forget about the blip on the radar.

And then there is the general public, who haven't heard about any problems with them. They'll buy the bike, ride it a thousand miles a year (if that much) and say how rock solid the design is.

 

[charlie b]

Did not sound that way at all.

I appreciate hearing from folks who have more experience than I do. I don't always agree with it, but, I listen.