karl
Site Supporter
Below, Rich?
NT Battery Replacement
- Thread starter tawilke46
- Start date
It's an earlier post on this thread. It's below if you have the posts sorted in reverse chronology.
karl
Site Supporter
Rich if you are referring to post #13 your airplane may not be able to support all your avionics but my bikes alternator can provide me with enough power to run the engine and lights.
Or do you have some facts you would like to share with us. Something that I missed the first time around. Thanks in advance.
Or do you have some facts you would like to share with us. Something that I missed the first time around. Thanks in advance.
My battery is starting to labor when cold starting (and it ain't that cold). I'm considering getting one of these batteries as a replacement. But the part number they recommend is LFX18A1-BS12, which seems to have the wrong terminal polarity. It would appear that getting the positive cable on this would be a challenge. Is this the one you got? If so, how did it get installed?I went high end. It's smaller but comes with pads for perfect fit. It also has more power!
http://www.shoraipower.com/s-235034-NT700V-Deauville.aspx
They also make a quality charger you can leave on during the off season
http://www.shoraipower.com/s-235034-NT700V-Deauville.aspx
You don't have to unscrew the battery posts to charge the battery. There is a separate spot on the battery for that. The charger is so small, I strapped it under my seat where the manual came! My charger rides with me
I think I've answered my own question after some sleuthing. It would appear that the correct part number would be LFX18L1-BS12. Can you confirm this?
This has to do with the battery's ability to keep you cooking in the event of an alternator failure.
I replaced my battery today after just over 2 years and 15,000 miles. I think it had an internal short where it would slowly drop charge like overnite. I had been noticing the starter sounded like it was dragging but I thought it was my imagination. Yesterday when I cranked the starter the voltage dropped enough to reset the clock. It did that twice, that is what made me look closer.
I know some have replaced theirs with new style aftermarket batteries but I went with the OEM Yuasa sealed type. Pretty pricey, $175. Could have saved a little online but after shipping not enough difference to matter and now it won't strand me.
With the new battery hot off the charger the starter spun so fast It startled me.
Brad
I know some have replaced theirs with new style aftermarket batteries but I went with the OEM Yuasa sealed type. Pretty pricey, $175. Could have saved a little online but after shipping not enough difference to matter and now it won't strand me.
With the new battery hot off the charger the starter spun so fast It startled me.
Brad
I replaced the 14 AHr stock Yuasa with a Shorai Li-Fe 18 AHr. Cost about $180. 5 pounds lighter and bit smaller. It was so light that when I received the package via USPS it was so light I was confused, at first, what it could be. Put about 4,000 miles on it so far.
I've had a weak battery recently and leave it hooked up to the Battery Tender when not in daily-commute use. I unplug the always-powered outlet I installed in the left pocket, so I don't think there's any particular drain to the system. I had not hooked it up after Thursday's ride and this morning it wouldn't start. Turned over a couple of times, but no start. Have been carrying jumper cables since I bought it and had to use them a couple times when it wouldn't start. Am looking at the Ballistic EVO 8 or 12 cell as a replacement. The 8-cell claims 240 cold cranking amps (CCA) for $145 and the 12-cell states 410 CCA for about $175 online. Two questions - first, how many CCA are necessary for starting the bike if it's been sitting in a relatively open parking garage for the day at sub-freeezing temperatures? Second, I note that they sell a matching charger for the unit, but would prefer to continue using my Battery Tender. Will the Battery Tender work just as well?
By the way, the other reason I didn't take the bike this morning is when I noticed the steel belts showing in the center of the rear tire. Just over 13K on the odometer, I was expecting it to last at least another couple thousand miles.
By the way, the other reason I didn't take the bike this morning is when I noticed the steel belts showing in the center of the rear tire. Just over 13K on the odometer, I was expecting it to last at least another couple thousand miles.
bicyclist
Guest
Information about a particular product can often be found on the manufacturer's web site. So, I looked it up for you. Ballistic says:
Charging:
The best method for charging your EVO2 battery is to use the Ballistic Professional Intelligent Digital Balance Charger. It has a fast charge mode, a storage mode, and the ability to charge each cell or series individually. This Balance mode, when used periodically will greatly extend the life of the EVO2 battery.
You can use a conventional automotive or motorcycle based charger to recharge or maintain your EVO2 Battery. When using a conventional charger/trickle charge please check the following:
The charger should have an automatic cut-off at 14.4V to prevent over charging.
If you are using an automatic charger, be sure it does not have an automatic “desulfication” mode. This is a lead-acid specific function that can damage the EVO2 cells.
Some conventional automatic chargers have charging parameters based around lead-acid voltage specifications which are lower than EVO2 voltage specifications. If your automatic charger shuts off at 12.8 volts then it will never fully charge a EVO2 battery with a resting voltage of 13.2v
They also say:
How do you compare lithium amp/hour and cold cranking amp ratings to traditional lead acid ratings?
Ballistic Performance Components batteries are designed to be starter batteries. Lithium Ferrous Phosphate technology works really well as a starter battery because it is able to deliver a large amount of energy in a short period of time and then recover. This is why they can be made so much smaller and lighter than the lead-acid equivalent.
Lead-acid battery manufacturers have been using Amp-Hour (Ahr) ratings for years to indicate the cranking ability of their batteries. The Amp-Hour rating is a measure of how long a battery can deliver a specific current over the course of 60 minutes at a low discharge rate to half of nominal voltage. This rating has little to do with how a battery will actually start a vehicle. Because the rating itself is based on a complete discharge, under actual conditions the lead acid battery will deliver much less than the amp-hour rating. As a lead-acid battery discharges it begins to sulfate and its internal resistance increases. Also, discharging any battery to a complete discharge will damage it permanently.
A Ballistic Performance Components EVO2 battery will operate completely different. EVO2 batteries have significantly less internal resistance so they are able to discharge more of their capacity in a burst and still remain usable. Because the usable capacity is much greater than an equivalent lead-acid, a 6.9Ahr 12 Cell EVO2 is on par with a 20AHr lead acid battery in actual performance as a starter battery. To illustrate this, we use the rating of Pb-eq A/Hr or lead (Pb) equivalent (eq) Amp Hour (A/Hr). The lead acid equivalent amp/hour rating is a simple way to compare the starting capacity of a LiFePO4 battery with the starting capacity of a lead-acid battery.
Cold cranking amp (CCA) ratings for lead-acid batteries are a bit deceiving as well. CCA specs are based on amps delivered at zero degrees Fahrenheit half of nominal voltage. (7.2V). This isn’t a very useful rating as 7.2volts will not start a vehicle. What really starts a vehicle is current multiplied by available voltage (Watts). Once again, because a EVO2 has so much less internal resistance it is able to deliver more voltage for a given amp draw, and thus more usable starting power.
All batteries start to lose performance below 32?F (0?C), and LiFePO4 batteries tend to fall off more dramatically. When the temperature of the EVO2 goes below 32?F (0?C) internal resistance starts to build in the battery and the amount of available amperage goes down as well. This should lower the Cold Cranking Amp rating, correct?
No. LiFePO4 batteries have the ability to build their own internal heat energy when a draw is put on the battery. This means that although if may be 0?vF (-18?C) outside, the battery has the ability to raise its internal temperature to 58?F (14?C) in seconds with a 100amp draw. As the temperature rises inside the battery, internal resistance lowers and the battery performs just like it does when it is 60??F (15?C) outside. This means that the amount of available amperage does not change based on temperature.
Charging:
The best method for charging your EVO2 battery is to use the Ballistic Professional Intelligent Digital Balance Charger. It has a fast charge mode, a storage mode, and the ability to charge each cell or series individually. This Balance mode, when used periodically will greatly extend the life of the EVO2 battery.
You can use a conventional automotive or motorcycle based charger to recharge or maintain your EVO2 Battery. When using a conventional charger/trickle charge please check the following:
The charger should have an automatic cut-off at 14.4V to prevent over charging.
If you are using an automatic charger, be sure it does not have an automatic “desulfication” mode. This is a lead-acid specific function that can damage the EVO2 cells.
Some conventional automatic chargers have charging parameters based around lead-acid voltage specifications which are lower than EVO2 voltage specifications. If your automatic charger shuts off at 12.8 volts then it will never fully charge a EVO2 battery with a resting voltage of 13.2v
They also say:
How do you compare lithium amp/hour and cold cranking amp ratings to traditional lead acid ratings?
Ballistic Performance Components batteries are designed to be starter batteries. Lithium Ferrous Phosphate technology works really well as a starter battery because it is able to deliver a large amount of energy in a short period of time and then recover. This is why they can be made so much smaller and lighter than the lead-acid equivalent.
Lead-acid battery manufacturers have been using Amp-Hour (Ahr) ratings for years to indicate the cranking ability of their batteries. The Amp-Hour rating is a measure of how long a battery can deliver a specific current over the course of 60 minutes at a low discharge rate to half of nominal voltage. This rating has little to do with how a battery will actually start a vehicle. Because the rating itself is based on a complete discharge, under actual conditions the lead acid battery will deliver much less than the amp-hour rating. As a lead-acid battery discharges it begins to sulfate and its internal resistance increases. Also, discharging any battery to a complete discharge will damage it permanently.
A Ballistic Performance Components EVO2 battery will operate completely different. EVO2 batteries have significantly less internal resistance so they are able to discharge more of their capacity in a burst and still remain usable. Because the usable capacity is much greater than an equivalent lead-acid, a 6.9Ahr 12 Cell EVO2 is on par with a 20AHr lead acid battery in actual performance as a starter battery. To illustrate this, we use the rating of Pb-eq A/Hr or lead (Pb) equivalent (eq) Amp Hour (A/Hr). The lead acid equivalent amp/hour rating is a simple way to compare the starting capacity of a LiFePO4 battery with the starting capacity of a lead-acid battery.
Cold cranking amp (CCA) ratings for lead-acid batteries are a bit deceiving as well. CCA specs are based on amps delivered at zero degrees Fahrenheit half of nominal voltage. (7.2V). This isn’t a very useful rating as 7.2volts will not start a vehicle. What really starts a vehicle is current multiplied by available voltage (Watts). Once again, because a EVO2 has so much less internal resistance it is able to deliver more voltage for a given amp draw, and thus more usable starting power.
All batteries start to lose performance below 32?F (0?C), and LiFePO4 batteries tend to fall off more dramatically. When the temperature of the EVO2 goes below 32?F (0?C) internal resistance starts to build in the battery and the amount of available amperage goes down as well. This should lower the Cold Cranking Amp rating, correct?
No. LiFePO4 batteries have the ability to build their own internal heat energy when a draw is put on the battery. This means that although if may be 0?vF (-18?C) outside, the battery has the ability to raise its internal temperature to 58?F (14?C) in seconds with a 100amp draw. As the temperature rises inside the battery, internal resistance lowers and the battery performs just like it does when it is 60??F (15?C) outside. This means that the amount of available amperage does not change based on temperature.
What tire are you using?
karl
Site Supporter
The one that came with the bike and will continue to use it till it fails. Going into year four now without a problem yet.
I believe these are lithium iron batteries. Do yourself a favor and AVOID this battery UNLESS you plan on only riding your bike in temperatures of 40F and higher. The cold performance of these batteries is horrendous. The voltage drop is staggering. I had a brand new large capacity lithium iron battery on my Wing and at temps lower then 50F, the voltage drop was worse than my 4 year old lead acid battery. At temps of 20F the battery would barely start the bike.
Stick with the lead acid battery for a standard road going vehicle. Those lithium iron (or lithium ferrous phosphate) batteries are best left to weekend racers looking for low weight and warm temperatures.
I also had the one that came with the bike. I had changed the front at 11,500. Now it's time for the rear.
Thought I'd chime in with a bit of longer-term feedback on the Shorai. This has the same chemistry as the EV02, though it's packaged differently.
I'm finding its cold-temp (<40 deg F) cranking behavior disappointing. If it sits for even a few days (the bike is in a carport attached to the house) and the temp gets into the 30's, like as not when you crank the engine the system voltage drops enough to reset the instruments. There are several thresholds:
1. I usually keep trip A up on the display. Very commonly the voltage drop will cause it to revert to the base odometer.
2. Sometimes the trip odometers will also reset.
3. More rarely the clock will also reset.
4. In one extreme case I hadn't driven the bike in a couple of weeks (overnight temp had been about 35) and cranking was very weak, and of course all the stuff reset. They claim that the act of starting will warm the battery and subsequent starts will improve. My battery (which could conceivably be defective) did not behave that way at all. Each start attempt was weaker than the previous and ultimately the bike would not crank. So I plugged in the battery tender and, without waiting for the battery to recharge, cranked it and it started right up.
On a subsequent day, when the bike had sat for a few days and it was another cold morning, I tried another trick they recommended: Turn the bike on and draw current for the lights and whatnot for a few minutes to pre-warm the battery. When I did try to start the bike, cranking was very weak, the instruments reset, but the bike did start. BTW, I have come to measure the bike's draw when turned on and it's about 7.5 amps. When it's not, the current draw is so low I can't measure it with my digital Multimeter.
I should say this seems to be limited to the initial start of the day. So a factor in this seems to be a few days of inactivity.
I'm finding its cold-temp (<40 deg F) cranking behavior disappointing. If it sits for even a few days (the bike is in a carport attached to the house) and the temp gets into the 30's, like as not when you crank the engine the system voltage drops enough to reset the instruments. There are several thresholds:
1. I usually keep trip A up on the display. Very commonly the voltage drop will cause it to revert to the base odometer.
2. Sometimes the trip odometers will also reset.
3. More rarely the clock will also reset.
4. In one extreme case I hadn't driven the bike in a couple of weeks (overnight temp had been about 35) and cranking was very weak, and of course all the stuff reset. They claim that the act of starting will warm the battery and subsequent starts will improve. My battery (which could conceivably be defective) did not behave that way at all. Each start attempt was weaker than the previous and ultimately the bike would not crank. So I plugged in the battery tender and, without waiting for the battery to recharge, cranked it and it started right up.
On a subsequent day, when the bike had sat for a few days and it was another cold morning, I tried another trick they recommended: Turn the bike on and draw current for the lights and whatnot for a few minutes to pre-warm the battery. When I did try to start the bike, cranking was very weak, the instruments reset, but the bike did start. BTW, I have come to measure the bike's draw when turned on and it's about 7.5 amps. When it's not, the current draw is so low I can't measure it with my digital Multimeter.
I should say this seems to be limited to the initial start of the day. So a factor in this seems to be a few days of inactivity.
bicyclist
Guest
That's kind of my take, as well. This is pretty new technology (well, the application is new) and I'd like to see it mature a bit before I start using it.
According to forum posters who use these batteries, it sometimes takes a few tries before a bike will start in cold weather. Each attempt causes the battery to generate heat until it warms itself enough to overcome its internal resistance.
There have been reports of some of these types of batteries melting. Apparently, they're fussy about charging voltage and somewhat temperamental. I dunno about you, but I don't want that kind of business going on under my crotch.
elizilla
Guest
I have the Shorai in my Super10. It sits for weeks at a time in the winter. I don't put it on a tender. I last had it out two weeks ago. I leave the heated grips switched on, so they come on the minute I turn on the key. I turn the key on and let the grips run while I back out of the garage. This seems to be enough to warm the battery for starting - it has started on first crank every time I have had it out this winter. You can't say that Michigan isn't cold.
I have seen two bikes where conventional batteries caught fire. Both were stored outside in damp locations and poorly maintained. You want to make sure you keep the wiring clean and solid, or you can have problems regardless of what kind of battery you choose.
I have seen two bikes where conventional batteries caught fire. Both were stored outside in damp locations and poorly maintained. You want to make sure you keep the wiring clean and solid, or you can have problems regardless of what kind of battery you choose.
Last edited by a moderator:
DirtFlier
Site Supporter
[...But when I turn on the ignition before starting the bike I get a yellow steady light which indicates acceptable battery condition, and/or poor possibly weak charging condition (12.1 to 12.4 volts)..."]
That is a normal situation. I have a digital voltmeter on my bike and that's what it shows with key ON. Once I start the engine, it goes to 14.0-14.3 v. Don't worry about it.
That is a normal situation. I have a digital voltmeter on my bike and that's what it shows with key ON. Once I start the engine, it goes to 14.0-14.3 v. Don't worry about it.
I could use more data. When you start it after some inactivity, what is the overnight low the night before in the garage. Mine is in a carport, so the bike and battery get to see the atmospheric overnight low. A garage will almost always change temperature more slowly than the outside air.
I'm still trying to figure out whether to replace this battery under warranty, which leaves me without a battery for some period of time. More data: Yesterday I charged the battery with the Shorai charger. The battery showed fine before starting the charge (voltage 13.4 V and the charger indicated it was not unduly discharged. I let it finish the charge sequence (not very long). Then this morning (overnight low about 36 deg F) I started the bike. It started OK, but the odometer switched once again from trip A to total mileage. I set to trip A again and let the bike run a few minutes, letting the engine warm up. Then shut it off. I did a few tasks and then started the bike again (maybe 5-10 minutes later). Odometer reset again. So I set the odometer to trip A again and set about my desired trip. 13 miles - stop - restart and board the ferry - stop - after crossing the strait - start, and so on. After those initial two starts the bike was started 7 times without a repeat of the odometer reset. This included the bike sitting in a parking lot for 2-1/2 hours. But by then the air temperature was 43-45 deg F.
One thing I'm thinking is the instrument cluster gauges are very sensitive to voltage fluctuations. Some functions more so than others. This, of course, would be a moot point on bikes lacking same and might not be a factor on bikes where the internals are somewhat different. I'm thinking about maybe adding a capacitor and isolation diode the that particular sub-circuit. But on the other hand, this normally only happens in weather that's just cold enough.
Your experience matches mine with lithium iron batteries. They suffer from significant voltage drop when temperatures are "cold". And by cold I mean anything under 50F. I'd be interested to see you experience after the bike/battery sat outside in 15-20F temps all day/night before trying to start it. My garage never drops below 40F. The bike still suffered from voltage drop issues when starting (even when "warming" the battery as recommended). But when I left from work in the day after the bike sat outside in 20F temps, the bike was VERY slow to crank. :frown:
Lithium iron batteries do have some pros. They weight significantly less (great if on the track), can be quite small and do not discharge nearly as fast as lead acid when unused (keeping in mind that most vehicles these days draw off the battery even when sitting "unused") so a tender is still likely needed for long term "storage".
I never saw that any of the pros out weighed the cons which are HORRIFIC "cold" temperature performance and high price tag. I replaced my Shorai battery with the OEM lead acid battery and the voltage drop issues disappeared (even when it was 20F). My Shorai now sits in my portable generator. I'll see how well the discharge claims hold up after it sits for 6 months before I exercise the generator (hopefully the weather is warm or I may need to jump the generator with my lead acid stand-by battery).
Lucky me! I had the bike in for replacement rear tire and had them do a load test on the battery. They fully charged it and the next morning it wouldn't start. Turns out it was merely a loose connection. No replacement necessary. Now, if I could just get Mother Nature to cooperate - we're expecting 2-5 inches of snow/slush/crap today and I'm not going to risk it on a brand new tire.