Troubles of getting it in neutral when hot + stationary...

ST1100Y

ST1100Y

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60
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Vienna, AuSTria, Europe
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ST1100Y, ST1100R, NT700
So, both NT700's in my proximity (the one of my GF & my friend's) show this symptom... 🤔

While in motion gear-changes are totally smooth, while rolling to stop neutral is also easy to get into, but in full stop the game begins: 2nd - "clunk" 1st - "clunk" 2nd - "clunk" 1st - etc...

Oil is OK, ball-joints & pivot of shifter linkage are cleaned and lubricated, cable play is set properly...
 
May be brand of oil. I would also double check clutch lever adjustment, a dragging clutch will do that.

Brad
 
I have noticed in the past 32 years of riding that Honda transmissions exhibit hard shifting into neutral when at a full stop. This was evident no matter the year or model that I owned. The trick I use is to let the clutch out to roll forward slowly a few feet. Then pull in the clutch and shift into neutral. This method has not let me down in the 32 years I have been using it. Also rocking the bike back and forth works too. Very useful when finding neutral when the engine is not running.

I call this maneuver "The Honda Boop".

I think this has something to do with shift drums and forks.

types-of-motorcycle-_800x0w.jpg
 
Brillot2000 said:
The trick I use is to let the clutch out to roll forward slowly a few feet.
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That's what I suggested as well: let the clutch drag briefly and try again...
It didn't happen to me when I rode my GF's NT, but she keeps mentioning it and now my friend notices it on his NT as well...

Dunno about oil issues, as it happens when the engine is hot, the oil would be even runnier then...
 
Sounds like a clutch adjustment issue, but you said that was ok. Are you certain that the clutch lever is being squeezed ALL the way in?
 
ST1100Y said:
That's what I suggested as well: let the clutch drag briefly and try again...
It didn't happen to me when I rode my GF's NT, but she keeps mentioning it and now my friend notices it on his NT as well...

Dunno about oil issues, as it happens when the engine is hot, the oil would be even runnier then...
Click to expand...

I am telling you that this is an inherent design issue for Honda in the past 60 years or so. I am sure it can be traced back to the shift forks traveling through the grooves on the shift drum. Have you ever seen the tracks in the shift drum other than the image that I provided earlier? They can make some pretty sharp jogs that make some shifts and the shift fork movements seem stiff or harsh at times. I think that's what is going on a good percentage of the time between 1st and 2nd gear where neutral resides.

I owned a 1965 Honda CA77, 305 Dream for several years. A shout-out to all you old-timers that rode one of these or the various other displacements back in the day. The transmission on that bike did the exact same thing. It also had issues sometimes getting stuck between or slipping out of gears if you did not shift it right with a firm shift motion. Honda addressed that issue some years later. However, the neutral hard shifting issue has been around since the beginning.
 
Everybody needs to keep in mind, a motorcycle transmission does not have synchronizers like a automobile manual trans, where the synchros match the input and output shaft speeds. A motorcycle transmission is really designed to be shifted while the bike is rolling, the action of sliding the gears or hubs so dogs will engage with other dogs is intended to work during rotation, where they can hopefully interlock. Try shifting through all the gears sitting still, you may not get all of them without rocking the bike back and forth.
 
Brillot2000 said:
I am telling you that this is an inherent design issue for Honda in the past 60 years or so. I am sure it can be traced back to the shift forks traveling through the grooves on the shift drum. Have you ever seen the tracks in the shift drum other than the image that I provided earlier? They can make some pretty sharp jogs that make some shifts and the shift fork movements seem stiff or harsh at times. I think that's what is going on a good percentage of the time between 1st and 2nd gear where neutral resides.

I owned a 1965 Honda CA77, 305 Dream for several years. A shout-out to all you old-timers that rode one of these or the various other displacements back in the day. The transmission on that bike did the exact same thing. It also had issues sometimes getting stuck between or slipping out of gears if you did not shift it right with a firm shift motion. Honda addressed that issue some years later. However, the neutral hard shifting issue has been around since the beginning.
Click to expand...

I beg to differ. I have owned many Hondas since the 60's and worked as a Honda tech at a dealer when in college and I have never had an issue finding neutral on any of my bikes unless the clutch was improperly adjusted or the lever wasn't fully squeezed in. I don't recall a lot of customer complaints either.

Mike
 
When I first got my NT it had a slight problem like this, however I took a wee bit more free play out of my clutch cable and the problem went away and has never returned. My other suggestion would be the same as a couple others, Oil Type. Weight not as important as the type.
 
WVRider said:
... Oil Type. Weight not as important as the type.
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I tend to agree there...
Running full-synth in my ST1100 since the first change (@ 500km/300miles, using the OEM mineral oil only for running-in/cleaning) I never faced that issue...
Both NT are on semi/blended oil, I'll swap them to full synth upon the next interval and observe any changes.
 
Brillot2000 said:
I am telling you that this is an inherent design issue for Honda in the past 60 years or so.
Click to expand...
I also vaguely remembering something about enlarging the bores of the clutch center to improve oil drainage... 🤔
Could also be that the notch in the cam plate is simply not "prominent" enough to stop the drum firmly at the neutral position, so a very gentle and precise movement is required to actually "catch" it...
When shifting from 1st into 2nd on my ST1100 I can actually sense the neutral-notch during shifter actuation, in fact I remain there briefly to enable smooth shifting into 2nd without any noise/grinding gears...
 
mikesim said:
I beg to differ. I have owned many Hondas since the 60's and worked as a Honda tech at a dealer when in college and I have never had an issue finding neutral on any of my bikes unless the clutch was improperly adjusted or the lever wasn't fully squeezed in. I don't recall a lot of customer complaints either.

Mike
Click to expand...

Well, I cannot argue with my experiences over the years that I have been riding Hondas. Its something that does not occur that often or the riders got used to it and they no longer notice it. I use the procedure that I mentioned every time I get on a bike with a manual transmission. The finding neutral issues is more noticeable on my 1987 XL600R that has an XR600R engine than the NT. It was very notable on my 1975 Honda CB360T that owned for nearly a decade. It doesn’t apply to my 2013 NC700X DCT.

I have also noticed that setting the clutch cable play per factory procedures puts the clutch release point at the end of the levers travel. I like the release point to be about 3/4 of the way out from when the lever is fully engaged. Having the friction point at the end of your reach isn't very useful and can cause some people with shorter fingers to lunge forward unexpectedly. It does not take much actuation of the lever to disengage the clutch. For me the location of the friction point is more important than the factory-specified clutch cable play. When I had my 2004 ST1300, I put an adjustable clutch lever off a CBR900. Then I was could adjust where I wanted the friction point on that bike that had a hydraulic clutch.

Of course this my experience and opinion on the subject. Others results may vary.
 
Having the rear wheel rolling just a tiny amount really helps when finding neutral or if you're at a complete stop, you can roll the bike back-and-forth a tiny amount and that helps greatly.

If you look at the shift drum component that selects the gears or neutral (it looks like a star with rounded tips), the indent for neutral is only about half as deep as it is for the forward gears and that's because if they made it full depth, it would be difficult to shift from 1st to 2nd! :)

I ran the Honda Rider Education Ctr in OH for 16 years and students would often get frustrated by their inability to find Neutral and would often take it out on the shift lever by stomping on it as if that would help...yikes!

ps. I agree that finding Neutral on a DCT bike is easy because my right thumb never has a problem selecting N. :)
 
Kawasaki has an automatic neutral locator. I had one on a 2008 KLR, and there is one on my Versys 300. When the bike is not moving, it will only go into neutral when shifting from 2nd to 1st or vise versa. A simple mechanism that works flawlessly and gives no problems.
 
Hondafan said:
Kawasaki has an automatic neutral locator. I had one on a 2008 KLR, and there is one on my Versys 300. When the bike is not moving, it will only go into neutral when shifting from 2nd to 1st or vise versa. A simple mechanism that works flawlessly and gives no problems.
Click to expand...

I liked the neutral finder on my Kawasaki Concourses. It worked really well.
 
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