Engine Hesitation

[stephensatt]

I can try that, Seafoam has been pretty good stuff in the past for my generators, but I am going to start calling Honda dealers today. I did verify last night that mine is a recall bike. Its a 2010 and has plug boots which are not NGK brand, but I could barely make out the logo on the boots, started with a "T" like TOC or something.

This is an interesting situation because YES, it did sit up and magically started doing this after sitting up. However, I always drain all the gas before a startup from sitting like that. I am sure some old gas got into the mix but we are talking a smidge of 6 month old gas and not allot of 2 or 3 year old gas. I can also tell you this, we have extreme humidity and moisture here in Houston and I had a tarp over it and its seems kinda wet under the tarp, but the bike is plenty dry. I have been at this off and on now for a month, and its well dried out and I have taken the plugs boots off and plenty of sensor boots and everything looks good. No water in the boots anywhere, and all fuses are good.

Anyhow, bike runs perfectly smooth for the first 5 minutes and you can zip all over the neighborhood but once it warms up and it lowers the RPMS from about 1200 to 800 or so its start dying and missing and becomes undrivable because it will die on you at any moment especially if you try and gun the gas, its just chokes out and dies.

Some people have told me thats classic Crank Sensor, CKP sensor fault but I get no fault light on that, and its passes the multimeter test and I got exactly 550 ohm reading. I do have a brand new Honda CKP "Pulse Generator" sensor and I ran the ohm test on it just for comparison and I got 540 ohms on the new sensor.

I went ahead and ordered the boots from Partzilla but then I came across a thread saying the recall extends to ALL bikes and its a free repair regardless of age and warranty status. I am going to call the dealers when they open in the next hour, and I will post what they tell me just in case anyone is wondering if they can still take a 10yr old bike to the dealer and get free work.

 

[stephensatt]

Just talked with Honda of Houston and they ran the VIN and said that the "product update" is expired now so they will not perform the work for free. So anyhow I ordered the parts from Partzilla and should have them next week. It looks like an easy repair, but I have taken the plug boots on and off and they are brass on the inside, and anyhow, look good and clean so I am somewhat skeptical this would fix the issue.

 

[ARKNT]

Good luck with your troubleshooting. The boots are possible issues and cheap and non invasive enough to be the next step. The ohm readings on CKP sensor may not be too telling. I think the failure mode of them is fail when hot and is intermittent. Hard to get that with an ohm meter on a non running engine. I would think you should get a code if it failed but since once again it is not a hard failure so hard to say.
Sounds fuelish but mostly because of it's storage status, not based on much real data.
Good luck and keep us informed. I still have the original plug caps and may change mine at the next major service time.

Brad

 

[stephensatt]

Ok, just got the codes off it. It flashed like this 8,9,29,19,13 , now the 29, could be 22 and then 9, because its two long flashes followed by 9 short ones, well that would be a ton of bad sensors if all that was right. Anyhow, did its classic thing. Ran perfect first 5 minutes until the temp needle gets dead center. When that happens the bike idles down the rpms from about 1200 to 800 or so and it stays idling ok, as long as you don't try to rev fast. I can rev it smooth if I rev very slowly but if I flick the throttle, it dies, sputters, pops and dies over and over. None of this whatsoever when its cold and in cold run mode. Its when it goes into warm run mode. 10k miles, not very many.

 

[stephensatt]

ARKNT, you may have nailed it. Thanks! So I got to thinking about your post, it failing once hot. I went and put the multimeter on it while engine still hot, and I got 14-15ohms, kinda fluctuated. I turned it over a few times just to make sure it wasnt sitting on a magnetic strike position and all I got after that was .65 ohms. I got 550 when its cold and 540 from a brand new Honda OEM sensor I ordered sitting in the box. So I guess I am going to change it out. These are classic bad CKP symptoms. Man I was hoping to not have to mess with that but oh well. I think you can loosen the manifold bolts from what I read and just sorta move it over to get the cover off once you get the exhaust off.

 

[stephensatt]

I changed out the CKP sensor. Made no difference except now I get an actual MIL light once it heats up and starts dyeing. Same codes. Wish I could get them to clear but the jumper method hasn't work for me.

 

[ARKNT]

You have a lot of codes lit up. I don't think they will reset if the computer thinks they are still active. Along with your other efforts I would verify you have correct voltage getting to the computer. Include looking for poor/corroded connections. Without the right voltage computers can get confused. That doesn't sound heat/warm up related but worth a check.

I'm a little curious about the CKP ohm readings. That was a lot of change from cold to hot. What does the old one read now after removal?

Brad

 

[mikesim]

Have you dismissed a fueling problem? Tried Seafoam? Here is my theory FWIW. When the engine is cold the CTS (coolant temp sensor) provides this info to the ECM and the ECM increases the fuel injector pulse width to richen the fuel mixture when the engine is cold much like the choke did in the good old days. As the engine reaches operating temp the CTS provides this info to the ECM and the injector pulse width decreases causing less fuel to reach the engine. IF there is gunk/crud in the fuel system, the cold rich mixture allows the engine to run properly but when the engine warms and the fuel is decreased the engine runs way too lean resulting in the poor performance you are experiencing. This theory correlates well with engine cold/warm driveability problem that you have. Also, the fuel deterioration that I suspect also coincides with the time the bike was laid up with stale fuel in the tank. The fuel may now be fresh but the gunk residue remains causing the problem. No guarantees of course but it could be the problem.

Mike

 

[dnktng]

That's a lot of codes.
8 Throttle Position Sensor. It means the sensors voltage is too high or too low.
9 Inlet Air Temp Sensor. It means the sensors voltage is too high or too low.
29 Idle Air Control Valve. This makes the engine idle faster during cold warm up, and gradually closes off air to the throttle bodies to the normal ~1200 rpm when warm. Engine stalls, hard to start, rough idling.
13 Fuel injector. probably not connected or not being sent a signal to open from ECM. Engine won't start.
19 Crank Position Sensor. Loss of self generated signal from sensor. Engine won't start.

Have you disconnected any of these sensors lately? If so, check them again.
It would be helpful to know when you are getting the codes. For example, are you getting them after turning the ignition on and before cranking the starter motor, while cranking the starter motor, after the engine is running, or at some other time?
Are these active codes or stored codes in the ECM? This may help.

You may have a fuel issue, but if you don't solve some the codes first (Code 13, 19, if active codes) it really won't matter because the engine won't start.
If all of those codes are active it would highly unlikely that you have any actual sensor failure and it would be more likely to be one common fault. Possibly an ECM Connector, battery voltage low, bad ground, or some other loose connector.

 

[mikesim]

In my prior reading, I failed to read that ALL these codes were present. If they truly are, simultaneously, then the problem is very likely electrical and not fueling. Usually, it has been my experience that when multiple fault codes occur simultaneously it very likely is a bad ground.

Mike

 

[stephensatt]

It is quite possible some of the codes or most of the codes are a result of me trying to start the engine with the air cleaner off with many of these sensors disconnected. I also made the mistake of reversing the map sensor and TPS sensor plugs, ones is blue and one is black but they are the same plug and in the same location, (how smart of Honda) , I had reversed those when putting the bike together a couple of weeks ago, and it just wouldn't start at all and I caught the mistake pretty fast, but when I reversed it, cranked up and ran great for 5 minutes, the usual so I don't think I screwed anything up by accidentally doing that and this problem is very precise.

So because it does not erase the codes every time you power if off, like people say its supposed too but instead just keeps adding on the codes. They could be old. I made a video of the codes blinks and when I get it on Youtube I will link here but I do have a replacement MAP sensor and I will do that tonight, and the NGK plug cap boots should deliver today from Partzilla, so that will get done tonight also.

So I am just going down the list of what everyone is saying online that seems to be the majority of the issues. New super unleaded and gas tank cleaned , before even the first crank*DONE*, fuel pressure test 55PSI *DONE*. New CKP sensor *DONE*, New Air filter *DONE*. The MAP, and boots will get done tonight, then looks like after that will be checking TPS voltage, however acceleration is factory smooth and perfect for 5 to 10 minutes, until it warms up and hits halfway on the temp sensor precisely, and thats when the fan and thermostat kicks in, but its NOT triggered by the fan coming on.

Its triggered by temp and a noticeable automatic drop in RPM by the computer at that time. At that point RPMS lower and any quick flick of the throttle results in a back fire and trying to choke out and die, which in my opinion can only be not enough fuel on demand, or retardation in spark. If I gradually accelerate the throttle, you can get it over the sputtering and choking point but barely and if I can do that, say get it successfully into the 1500 RPMS range at that point, I could just gun it and as long as I don't let the RPMS drop below about 1500 rev it over and over, like there was a dead spot in the TPS, but there is not, because its not present at all in cold run mode.

This problem is exactly just like every Ford vehicle I owned in the 90's. The IAC solenoid would get dirty and cleaning it out with carb cleaner made the problem go away for awhile.

Bottom line is bike runs "Factory Perfect" for the first 5 to 10 minutes the bike is running, or as long as it takes for the bike to go from "cold run" mode, to "warm run". Once the computer makes the decision to reduce RPMs and I am sure it also leans out the fuel then you can expect sputtering and dying. Its so precise the way it does this, its guaranteed to be a computer problem of some kind the way I see it. . Because the RPMS are so smooth in cold mode, I find no dead spots on the TPS present in cold run. There is a thread here where a guy could never figure the problem out and just rotated the TPS sensor and it wouldn't die, kinda a quick fix. He ultimately fixed it by running bypass voltage to the TPS.

Because its cold right now, I could go out there and crank it and zip up and down the road and you would think, what a great running bike! Give it 10 minutes. This action is 100% reproducible, day after day, precisely too a T. So if you want to get a good 10 minutes to the store 1 mile away, the bike is good for that. You might not get back.

 

[DirtFlier]

When there is a bad ground, the current still tries to make its way home so finds all sort of different paths, often times causing lots of headaches.

 

[stephensatt]

I am at that point now, other than the MAP which is simple, and the plug boots which really have to be done, that I am gonna whip out the endoscope and start pushing and prodding all the wires and see if something is in a position where when it reaches exactly 200 degrees it grounds out or disconnects. Something like that. Anyhow, here is the video of my MIL. So we see if I got this right. I count , 1, 8, 9, 29, 19, 13, then it resets and reruns those same code flashes until you turn it off. The video runs the flashes twice before I stop recording. You read that right, in 9 years. 6800 miles, not 10k like I thought. Its been garaged and periodically started and always on a battery maintainer and its got a brand new battery in it also I just got. Brand new AGM powersport battery I just installed a month ago when I started back getting the bike running. I had a stroke some years back and didn't ride for quite a while about 5 years after I bought that bike and then I got into the Adventure riding, so its been sitting on the back burner but the big rally is coming up and I was hoping to get the "techno" bike back on the road because no one has one except for me at the rallies has one. Cool bike other than the electrical probs.

 

[ARKNT]

In your writeups, you have mentioned that the idle speed decreases and the poor running starts just as the temperature needle passes midway on the gauge. I am assuming you are reading the OEM temp meter. That is way late for the computer to cut back on the idle speed for a cold start.
I'm not sure what that means but add it in to the other symptoms.

Brad

 

[dnktng]

Something like that. Anyhow, here is the video of my MIL. So we see if I got this right. I count , 1, 8, 9, 29, 19, 13, then it resets and reruns those same code flashes until you turn it off. The video runs the flashes twice before I stop recording.

Is this a video of codes stored in your ECM or Active codes before you attempt to start the engine? Do you have a shorting wire in the DLC for this video?

 

[stephensatt]

Is this a video of codes stored in your ECM or Active codes before you attempt to start the engine? Do you have a shorting wire in the DLC for this video?

Yes, and YES are the answers for both. I am looking at the water temp meter on the dash as a reference. I do not know exactly what that water temp would be, but when it gets to the halfway mark it noticeably lowers RPMs and this is if I just let it sit there and watch it. Its quite precise at right in the middle, but I understand what you are saying, thats its probably pre-determining temp and doing it ahead of time, but I have not hooked any kind of reader to it, like my OBD bluetooth reader is use on cars, which would show precise load, temps, codes, rpms and so forth like I use on my car and I can clear codes with my OBD reader. I wish it has OBD and I could do that but its just got that little red plug that you put the jumper in. Also DNKTNG , in that video, I do have the jumper inserted on the brown and green wire, and it starts flashing the codes by turning the ignition on, and then I click the engine shutoff switch to the RUN mode which is down, and you will hear the fuel pump kick on in the video and thats when it start flashing the codes.

I have been unable to reproduce the other method where you pull the clutch, place it in neutral and drop the kickstand and that somehow triggers the code flash without inserting a jumper wire.

Also I have been unable to clear it. I have tried to start it, put it in run mode, insert and then remove the wire to clear it and so forth, and that hasn't worked. The codes have been unchanged since I have changed the CPK sensor, and I have tried to start it multiple times with all types of various sensors plugged in and not plugged while troubleshooting and that could have triggered a range of codes.

So when I get home, I will attempt to clear the codes by inserting it, place it in RUN, its supposed to activate the MIL light solid. I then remove the wire and re-attach is all in 5 seconds according to the write-up here about how to read and clear codes. I want to say I have tried that multiple times now with no results and also the kickstand drop method yielded no results either.

 

[dnktng]

Good, these are stored codes that happened....who know's when. That makes sense, because the engine shouldn't start with active codes 13 and 19. You probably haven't been able to see codes using the clutch released, in Neutral, and SS down method because there aren't any active codes.

Clear the codes in the ECM, then see if codes return when 1) Ignition turned ON or 2) when starter motor is turning or 3) when out riding for 10 minutes. The engine doesn't get started to clear the codes in the ECM.
How to clear the codes in the ECM.
The ECM doesn't save the previous fault codes in chronological order. Because of that, it is a good idea to clear the codes & keep the register empty so that in an event of a new MIL fault code occurring there won't be other codes stored in the ECM to confuse any future troubleshooting. If you are concerned about having proof of past codes (ie ...to show a shop) I would suggest videoing your old codes flashing. To clear the codes:
-Ignition switch off
-Remove seat and left side cover.
-Remove the red cap off of the Dummy Load Connector (DLC). It's the 4 wire connector with the red cap just forward of the ECM (main computer card).
-Insert a shorting wire into the Brown and Green wire's terminals of the DLC. I use a ~4" long speaker wire. Any small wire should work.
-Verify engine kill switch is ON.
-Turn Ignition switch to ON.
-Temporarily remove the shorting wire in the DLC plug. The MIL will have a solid yellow light for 5 seconds, reinsert the shorting wire into same Brown/Green wire terminals on the DLC during the 5 seconds.
-Verify MIL goes OFF, then starts blinking. The ECM memory is now cleared. If you're unsure that the codes were cleared try reading the stored codes in the ECM from steps above.
-Turn ignition switch off, remove shorting wire, replace cap & side cover & seat.

 

[stephensatt]

Well Gentlemen, its running good now, instant throttle response once warm and I ran it now about 10 mins so far past the time it normally fails, about 25 mins total from cold.

I cleared the codes using the procedure dnktng posted, and finally after a few tries it cleared and did the steady blinking. I pulled the air cleaner, and changed the MAP with a used one I had and the NGK replacement plug caps came in, and I installed them. I did also re-tighten the ground at the same time. I also checked all the vacuum hose and wires that were easy to get too and didn't see anything. Put it all back together and I could tell one thing right off the bat, the ticking sound that sounded like valve taps went away. It was very slight so I didn't really bring it up before. Thats strange, it was making that sound 6 months ago when it died on me out in traffic and this journey started. I had earlier done a valve adjustment afterwards because I figured it was about time, but it wasnt that off and the valve tap came back, but thats totally gone now. RPMS are super precise. It will come to rest no matter how fast I flick the throttle to exactly 1000 rpms and stay there.

This is my assessment of the situation. It was the spark plug caps and I don't think any other problems existed. It did act as if it was trying to miss, and would get that "puff" out the exhaust like it missed igniting a cylinder and it did this, seems like every minute or so randomly and anytime you gunned the gas it then choked and died or just made it over the hump and kept on running. Me probably disconnecting the random sensors and just messing around probably triggered a ton of codes.

What makes me sure it was the plugs , is the ground was nice and clean. Hoses and wires were all good, no rubbing anywhere. Bike is practically new, 6800 miles garaged at all times. MAP, maybe but I don't think that accounts for the missing. However, I think the valve tapping was some kind of partial spark or pre-detination because that sound is completely gone and was kinda weird for such a new motor. I think some "kind" of spark was being produced but anyhow it was just off enough to cause erratic fire, and also that explains why I never got an MIL light at anytime ever, not until I changed the CPK sensor did I get a light when it died, but not one time before.

Thank you guys for the help. I will be down at the Lonestar Rally with this bike on Galveston Island, TX , starts Halloween night. I am planning on wearing an Astronaut suit and have the wife be a green alien. Should go well with this kinda bike.

 

[Brillot2000]

For MIL Code 29 as called in the Honda Manual states the following. IACV (Idle Air Control Valve) circuit malfunction. Engine stalls, hard to start, rough idling.

This part is located on the throttle body. Make sure it is connected. My local dealer told me that people who have done there own valve adjustment always forget to connect at least one connector. It is a possibility this is your issue or the part is gummed up.

The IACV is a servo motor and they can fail from time to time. Here's a link to the microfiche, Honda NT700V - Throttle Body. Look at item 5.

I hope this helps point you in a direction to find a solution.

 

[ARKNT]

Hopefully you have gotten to the end of your issue. It seems several people here have replaced their plug caps lately. Mine are original and will probably get replaced at the next major service.
Is it possible the "ticking" you heard was actually arcing inside the plug cap?

Brad