"Top Ten" Classic Hondas

[ARKNT]

The mini-trail was probably my intro to motorcycles. A neighbor we were good friends with got a mini trail for their 2 boys. Still in 1960's I think. It had to be pretty tough to survive. I kind a remember a handlebar getting welded to fix it so it had a few scars. From that they progressed to larger dirt bikes (enduros) and so did one of my brothers and I. Old history now. Good times back then.

Brad

 

[Warren]

It’s not just Harley that is hurting with low sales in North America. Most of the other manufactures are as well. Harley also sells approx. 40% of its motorcycles internationally so it’s not like they didn’t try to seek out markets elsewhere. We could list dozens of large businesses that have been around for years that are now floundering. The world has changed dramatically. Some have been able to adapt and some have not. The story of Harley Davidson is not complete. They seem to think electric is where it will be. It will be interesting to see if they do survive and if so what kind of motorcycles they will be selling.

 

[nealv2]

Agree with all the above but the ST1100 Pan has to be in there I suppose I am biased having had one in the last 3 years but to me it was spot on if there was a criticism it could have been Six speed gearbox

 

[NewTo700V]

A more recent (still 20 years old now) classic from the modern fuel injection era is the CBR600F4i. This is a beloved middleweight to this day. More comfortable riding position than the high strung RR's and reliable. They hold their resale value well. If the VFR was never a thing, I'd own a F4i for sure.

 

[Brillot2000]

I have to bring up the Kawasaki KZ305.

My sister had one and I got to borrow it for a short time. It was a great running bike that was quite reliable. It was in the era just before the Cruiser came into the scene. Low seat height and swept-back handlebars. Some would refer to the handlebars as bullhorn handlebars at the time. Her next husband or my bother-in-law was overweight for that bike and put a top box full of 50 pounds of tools into it. He may have tried to mount a CB on this bike too.

The Honda CX500 Deluxe holds a special place in my heart.

Same overweight bother-in-law with put a top box full of 50 pounds of tools. I know for a fact he mounted a CB whip antenna and 40-Channel Corba CB Radio
on this bike.

The Honda CX500 Custom was more style like an early cruiser. Not really to my taste.

My previous brother-in-law's bike.

I really lusted for the Honda CX500 Turbo. A lost love.

 

[nealv2]

I have to bring up the Kawasaki KZ305.

My sister had one and I got to borrow it for a short time. It was a great running bike that was quite reliable. It was in the era just before the Cruiser came into the scene. Low seat height and swept-back handlebars. Some would refer to the handlebars as bullhorn handlebars at the time. Her next husband or my bother-in-law was overweight for that bike and put a top box full of 50 pounds of tools into it. He may have tried to mount a CB on this bike too.

The Honda CX500 Deluxe holds a special place in my heart.

Same overweight bother-in-law with put a top box full of 50 pounds of tools. I know for a fact he mounted a CB whip antenna and 40-Channel Corba CB Radio
on this bike.

The Honda CX500 Custom was more style like an early cruiser. Not really to my taste.

My previous brother-in-law's bike.

I really lusted for the Honda CX500 Turbo. A lost love.

They were known as the Euro over here in the uk

 

[Brillot2000]

They were known as the Euro over here in the uk

Yes, I quite aware of that fact. I personally would've liked that bike to be available in the US market. It looked like a classy and sexy bike. I would've settled for one of those if I could not have a Turbo Model. Back in the early '80s I was almost through my first decade of life.

 

[Phil Tarman]

That Euro is a good-looking bike. I had looked quite a lot at a CX-500 the local motorcycle repair shop in Ft Morgan had when I was starting to ride. Our dealer had one he wanted $2500 for and it needed some work. Then I stumbled into a great deal on my GL650i -- $2500 for a bike in great shape that didn't need any work. The panniers and trunk on the Silverwing had a lot to do with my leanings toward Long Distance riding. If I'd bought one of those Euros, I'd probably be be riding sport bikes today.

 

[Phil Tarman]

Also, there's some visceral thrill in having the engine poking out of the frame - even if it's oddly placed like a Moto-Guzzi.

LOL! That was my favorite secret thing about my GL650i Silverwing. I pretended it was a Moto Guzzi. (Don't tell anyone!!

 

[DirtFlier]

I had a PC800 for around 12 years and a comment I often got when stopped from another motorcyclist was "You can't see the engine!" I replied that I'd been working on engines since I was 15 so knew how they looked already.

Phil - I could have loved to own a GL650 Silver Wing but it just never happened.

 

[MaxPete]

Yup - something like the GL650 Silverwing is just what I'd be looking for these days. I want something with:

• a mid-sized liquid cooled engine - and reliability and serviceability (i.e. an EFI twin) are both way above performance;
• shaft drive;
• a fairing;
• integrated bags;
• a centrestand.

Is that too much to ask? I do not want a 700-900 lb monster that will do 250 km/hr (150 MPH) and I do not not need 150 HP, an on-board entertainment system or a galley/restroom suite. I am solo virtually 100% of the time - but I love to ride and see the countryside.

....hmmmmm.....that sounds a lot like an NT700V and except for the liquid cooling, an R100RS....

 

[nealv2]

I had a PC800 for around 12 years and one comment I often got when stopped from another motorcyclist was "You can't see the engine!" I replied that I'd been working on engines since I was 15 so knew how they looked already.

Phil - I could have loved to own a GL650 Silver Wing but it just never happened.

When I bought my Pan European ST1100 about 3 years ago I was trying to find a PC 800 back here in the Uk
There was only 3 in the uk at the time and they were way out of my price range I would have really liked to have got one even if I had I think it would have been difficult to maintain and get parts for it in the uk
I am still hopeful though

 

[Brillot2000]

One thing you didn't mention, is, either easy accessibility to the engine top-end, for valves; or hydraulic tappets.

The CX engine had the accessibility down, although of course not as pleasant as not needing to.

At least the NT has user-workable valve adjustments, without removal of the camshaft and use of shims.

Sadly...as sales decline in the States, we're not likely to see shaft drive or the others in anything but the biggest machines. Maybe not even then...who knows where Gold Wing sales will be in 20 years.

In developing nations, chain drive is fine to buyers.

I never owned a CX500 of any configurations. Between my two brother-in-laws I had access to both the Deluxe and Custom models from time to time. The Deluxe was my favorite version because of the 5 gallon tank and the huge bodywork integrated tail light.

In the next 20 years Generation X and the Millennials will be the only ones to support the Gold Wing, if I any of us are interested in them. It may go away entirely and be forgotten.

I personally don’t want a huge motorcycle that cost as much as an average car. An 800 pound gorilla doesn’t not seem that appealing to me.

 

[MaxPete]

Hydraulic tappets would be great - as this is about the only engine maintenance task that anyone has to do anymore.

Now, to be fair - the tappets on most modern bikes very seldom need attention, but when they do, it is a very complex and expensive task. I was going to do them on my ST1300 last summer, but the complexity of the job and the fact that some special tools plus new shims would be required made it easily to just job it out to the local stealership. There wasn't anything wrong with the bike - no odd noises or anything - but she had about 75,000 km (around 43,000 miles) on the clock at the time and I had never touched them and had no clue if the P/O had either. In the end, the bike needed one shim but the labour charges were significant (like several hundred dollars) for what, in an old Yamaha XS650 is a 30 minute task requiring a 12mm wrench and a screwdriver in addition to the usual feeler gauges. That is what attracts me to the R100RS - very simple valve adjustments.

Anyhow - we live in hope.....

 

[Phil Tarman]

IIRC, the ST-Owners group had a couple of sets of shims that they would send to members so they could do their own valve adjustments. If you used one or two, I think you replaced those and you just kept the shim set until the next member needed it.

Back to the '83 Silverwing. I remember well the day I decided that I needed to upgrade from it. It was in the early fall of '98 and I had been to Grand Junction and Montrose. I had gone primarily to see my son's band, The Flying Roscoes, open at the Olathe Sweet Corn Festival for Kansas (of "Dust in the Wind" fame). While I was there I decided it gave me a good opportunity to ride CO-93 between Crawford and Blue Mesa Dam. 93 is one of the best roads in a state with a lot of great roads. It's got elevation change, tight twisties, sweepers, and great views. And on a nice Sunday morning, it's got lots of motorcycles. I was really enjoying the ride, but kept getting passed by sport bikes, adventure bikes (not so many of those in '98), and sport-touring bikes, and meeting more of them going north. I picked up the pace a little bit and realized that the Silverwing didn't have the stiffest frame. Or the greatest brakes. Or the most powerful engine. It was just a tad slow compared to most other bikes on the road. After Blue Mesa, I was on US-50 eastbound and rode over Monarch Pass. I decided to stay on 50 to Penrose, east of Canon City.

As I went through Salida, I saw a couple on two mint-green BMW R1100RTs waiting to pull out. In about a mile they passed me. Five miles down the road they stopped for something and I passed them. In another mile, they passed me again. We played that game all the way to Colorado Springs. I'm guessing we passed each other at least 20 times. By the time we finally went our separate ways, I was burning with lust for an R1100RT. The next week, I had a hospital visit in Denver and after making that visit, went to a BMW dealer to look at an RT. This dealer, at that time, didn't have prices on his bikes. And he didn't pay any attention whatsoever to me. I have to admit that I didn't look like much -- the only motorcycle gear I had besides an old helmet was a leather leather jacket a friend had given me that had long fringe on the sleeves. I finally had to ask the guy what an RT cost and he finally looked at me and said, "You can't afford one." I said, "Well, just humor me...what does this one cost?" When he told me (seems like it was about $19 grand), I realized he was right. About ten minutes later, a kid (early 20s) who had just come in were looking at an R90, and, not knowing anything about R90s, I asked again, "What does this one cost?" and the dealer graciously replied, "You can't afford that either... but it's $9K." (I think that's what he said.) The kid and I wandered back over to a new R1200RT. The kid told me that he had just gotten his Masters degree and his dad was going to buy him an RT so they could ride together on two RTs. Then he pulled a signed blank check from his shirt pocket and showed it to me. This bike had some extras on it and was what he was looking for. He asked the friendly dealer, "How much?" and friendly dealer replied, "You can't afford one either." The kid and I left, me to ride my Silverwing back to Ft Morgan, the kid to go to the other, smaller dealer in Denver where, I'm sure, he bought an RT.

About six months after that I saw the first Kawasaki Concours I'd ever seen in Ft Morgan. I'd never heard of the Connie, but the next day, the Rider magazine I bought at Safeway had a long article about them. Within 3 weeks, I'd bought my first '99 Connie. A month or two after that I was in Denver for another hospital visit and went by that other, smaller BMW dealer to buy one of the little brass 90-degree tire valve extensions. The staff there couldn't have been nicer. Three of them went out to look at my new Connie and told me what a great bike it was. The let me sit on (and would have let me ride) a new RT. If I had ever been in the market for a BMW, guess where I would have gone?

I still like those early RTs, but I'm happy with my NT!

 

[MaxPete]

Yup - it always surprises me when someone selling anything looks at a person and makes a snap judgement like that.

Being in the sales business (which I am not - I'm an engineer) is all about relationships and that generally involves genuinely liking people and/or at least being nice to them. Arrogant jerks like the BMW motorcycle salesmen that you, and separately, I encountered (GET OFF THAT BIKE you grubby student - it is only for wealthy gentlemen!!!) likely do themselves out of far more sales than they get.

Oh well - it couldn't happen to a nicer couple of guys.....

 

[DirtFlier]

One thing that I thought was strange about the CX500/CX650 engines was the layout of crankcase and transmission cavity. Since the crankshaft was inline with the main axis of the bike (not transverse), the transmission had to be the same way since it was most efficient for shaft drive. They didn't want to make the engine overly long by putting the transmission behind the engine so they put the transmission under the crankshaft.

The crank in the Gold Wing also runs on the main axis and they put the tranny in back so it's a pretty long engine. Honestly these are just talking points over a beer and riding the CX or the GL, you'd never wonder about the engine layout.

 

[Phil Tarman]

One thing that I thought was strange about the CX500/CX650 engines was the layout of crankcase and transmission cavity. Since the crankshaft was inline with the main axis of the bike (not transverse), the transmission had to be the same way since it was most efficient for shaft drive. They didn't want to make the engine overly long by putting the transmission behind the engine so they put the transmission under the crankshaft.

The crank in the Gold Wing also runs on the main axis and they put the tranny in back so it's a pretty long engine. Honestly these are just talking points over a beer and riding the CX or the GL, you'd never wonder about the engine layout.

Back then I didn't know enough to even think about that kind of stuff. But like you say, riding them you'd never know the difference. But, when you were stopped, you could goose the throttle and feel a little torque reaction.

 

[mikesim]

One thing that I thought was strange about the CX500/CX650 engines was the layout of crankcase and transmission cavity. Since the crankshaft was inline with the main axis of the bike (not transverse), the transmission had to be the same way since it was most efficient for shaft drive. They didn't want to make the engine overly long by putting the transmission behind the engine so they put the transmission under the crankshaft.

The crank in the Gold Wing also runs on the main axis and they put the tranny in back so it's a pretty long engine. Honestly these are just talking points over a beer and riding the CX or the GL, you'd never wonder about the engine layout.

I've often wondered why Honda did not pursue the transverse engine further. I've not heard of any inherent reliability/longevity issues with this layout. The CX, ST and GL's were/are all good products and well thought of by their owners.

Mike

 

[MaxPete]

I've often wondered why Honda did not pursue the transverse engine further. I've not heard of any inherent reliability/longevity issues with this layout. The CX, ST and GL's were/are all good products and well thought of by their owners.

Mike

I suspect that the reasons they have not kept going with longitudinal crankshaft layouts are related to cost, weight, complexity and performance:

• the engine power must somehow wind up applying torque to the rear axle of the bike which is always transverse to the axis of the motorcycle - so a transverse crankshaft does not require a 90 deg. turn (i.e. all of the shafts in the engine, transmission and the axle are parallel);
• a longitudinal crankshaft does require at least one 90 deg. turn in the power path and that requires bevel gears which are heavier and more costly than spur gears as well as larger bearings to resist the large thrust forces inherent in bevel gear sets and these bearings also generally have more friction, are heavier and cost a good deal more than smaller bearings;
• a drive shaft and its housing plus the rear "pumpkin" bevel gear housing are heavier than a simple chain and two sprockets (which adds overall weight to the bike) and it also adds un-sprung mass to the rear end of the motorcycle which makes handling slower and reduces the responsiveness of the suspension somewhat.

There have been a few transverse-engined bikes that also had shaft drive (Suzuki GS650G, GS850G and GS1000G, Yamaha XJ750 Seca and a fair number of Hondas including the NT700V and others), but these bikes paid a significant penalty in cost, weight and complexity with two bevel gear sets (one at each end of the driveshaft) and while they were all great machines, they never sold as well as the chain driven variants and competitors in the same displacement class.

Too bad - I have always felt that my 1979 Suzuki GS850G was one of the nicest and best riding bikes I have ever owned and I would love to have an NT700V nowadays - but I am not very sporty.

Pete